In The Grand Tradition Of Martin Luther And John Calvin
And other gutless wonders
I recently had a discussion (and that's putting it mildly) with a rabidly anti-Catholic individual at work. It was sad, indeed, that this individual was self-admittantly unsure of many of the teachings of The Church, but he sure did have strong opinions against Catholicism. And it goes without saying that he spoke ever so highly of his heroes... the Bobsey Twins of Heresy; Luther and Calvin.
Anyhow, when he asked about the Real Presence of Christ in The Eucharist, I explained the Transubstantiation to him. And I wasn't really all that shocked when he stated "do you really expect me to buy-off on a ridiculous teaching like that!?"
To wit, I pointed out The Holy Gospel according to St. John, Chapter 6 (Douay-Rheims Bible, of course)
56 For My flesh is meat indeed: and My blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, abideth in Me, and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth Me, the same also shall live by Me.
61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? 62 But Jesus, knowing in Himself, that His disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you?
67 After this many of His disciples went back; and walked no more with Him. So as I pointed out to my aquaintance, his attitude wasn't anything new. It first reared it's ugly head back in 33 AD to Christ Himself.
And as my aquaintance winced as I also had the bad manners to point out --- his "heroes" followed in the same direction as those who refuted The Real Presence --- away from Jesus.
And other gutless wonders
I recently had a discussion (and that's putting it mildly) with a rabidly anti-Catholic individual at work. It was sad, indeed, that this individual was self-admittantly unsure of many of the teachings of The Church, but he sure did have strong opinions against Catholicism. And it goes without saying that he spoke ever so highly of his heroes... the Bobsey Twins of Heresy; Luther and Calvin.
Anyhow, when he asked about the Real Presence of Christ in The Eucharist, I explained the Transubstantiation to him. And I wasn't really all that shocked when he stated "do you really expect me to buy-off on a ridiculous teaching like that!?"
To wit, I pointed out The Holy Gospel according to St. John, Chapter 6 (Douay-Rheims Bible, of course)
61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? 62 But Jesus, knowing in Himself, that His disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you?
67 After this many of His disciples went back; and walked no more with Him.
And as my aquaintance winced as I also had the bad manners to point out --- his "heroes" followed in the same direction as those who refuted The Real Presence --- away from Jesus.
posted by Kevin Whiteman at
5:53 PM
9 Comments:
Gee, Cavey, if you'd pointed out that Luther also believed in the Real Presence, you might have seen his head explode.
Beautifully put!!
New reader here, I really enjoy yours posts! :)
From what I know of the lutherans, they believe in cosubstantiation. Still error, but staill far away from the Eucharist being only a "symbol".
You'll get a kick out of this:
"Although the notable Protestant Reformers questioned many traditional doctrines, the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity was, at least at first, not generally one of them. Martin Luther,[19] Huldrych Zwingli,[20] John Calvin,[21] and John Wesley[22] all arguably accepted its veracity."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_virginity_of_Mary
I'd ask your aquaintance how he feels about Our Lady's perpetual virginity. When he erroniously quotes Mark 6:3 to 'prove' his case, bring up this little gem. See how well he knows his heroes.
Paul,
You don't mean that silly cosubstantiation stuff, do ya? Or are you referring to the time BEFORE Luther fell into apostacy?
______________________________
JL,
Glad you like!
I mentioned that whole Gospel of John passage to my mother the other day... She really couldn't possibly refute the fact that no one would be so disgusted with Jesus over "just a symbol."
Very good. So, is your coworker signed up for RCIA yet or are you still working on him?
Unitas,
Granted, cosubstantiation isn't belief in "a symbol", but it's a degraded (hence heretical) belief of The Real Presence, nonetheless.
And thanks for ref!
I would then ask: If it's something "Rome made up" why is it that early Church Fathers who were Arabs, Jews, Turks, Egyptians and Jews believed in the Real Presence too. And why do the Orthodox believe in it too, since they have been in communion with Rome for 1000 years?
When confronting non- and anti-Catholics with that passage, I try to box them in by first asking, "You believe in the Bible, don't you?" When the answer in the affirmative (they always do), I follow-up with, "And you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God so it cannot be wrong, right?"
Then we open the Good Book, I'll use theirs if they have one, to the Gospel of John. They usually walk away muttering or deciding Christ didn't mean it the way He said it!
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