posted by Kevin Whiteman at
9:58 AM
Saturday, March 21, 2009
Ora Pro Nobis
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26 Comments:
"The Crucifixion didn't tickle".
I like that...
Ditto NYPD Green.
Glad to see someone gets it.
I love a good thief ;>)
Any time friend !
I have been going exclusively to the Mass of the Ages, instead of merely once in awhile, since August 2008. I was raised in this wonderful liturgy and experienced it through my young adulthood until the wreckovators got their way. I can NEVER go back to the modern mass, except when I am forced to satisfy my mass-going obligation while on business travel. Unfortunately, my wife and children are totally uninterested in the REAL mass, and do not want to go with me. I guess I am just a wimpy (retired) squid instead of a rough and tumble Marine grunt! :-)
Ad,
Hey Shipmate, believe me... It's tough on the Green side of the house, as well!
Oh, and I can't say anything bad about the Navy. My dearly departed dad was a retired Chief (WWII, Korea and Viet-Nam). And besides, I did two joint service tours aboard Naval Installations during my fun-filled career. Pretty damn good tours, at that!
The issue I have with many who are getting into this type of Mass. First, most have no idea what is going on. As an older Catholic who had this type of Mass on a daily basis growing up, there was a lot we had to learn in school about each part of the Mass. I have no objection to this type of Mass, but it does need to have those who go learn enough about it to still be able to do more than site there. You need to be involved. We all spoke the latin as we grew up enough to participate. Do you plan to learn latin so it is tryly like a second language to you. I took latin all the way through high school. If this is simply a way to show we are somehow a better Catholic, without paying the dues, it is a yuppie in thing which will not last. Is it not like looking around and saying Lord Lord to show how we are a little better than the other guy going to the Mass we have had for the last 40 years?
I have gone to several of these masses and realize how much work is required to get back to where I was that I am not sure I am willing to do. If I simply go and sit or go and pray the rosary as if I am no longer involved in the Mass is kind of like going to a foreign movie without subtitles and thinking I am cool because I am into foreign flicks. Pay the dues if you want to go.
Great,
I must disagree with your statement "most have no idea what is going on." I've been attending the TLM for over a decade now, and I knew from the git-go exactly what was going on --- specifically, the Un-Bloody Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. Not a Three-Ring Circus.
I knew that God was the focal point, not me. I also realize that I may not be a Latin Scholar, but I understand enough to understand the Mass. After all, most of the English language sprouts from Latin. In fact, I sometimes joke that "I'm shocked how much English I learn at the TLM".
But I will agree that it can smetimes be difficult... and imagine that - Catholics are expected to actually put forth some effort instead of having things spoon-fed to them. What a concept!
Oh, and as far as "not being involved", I'd like to quote Pope JPII; "Silent prayer IS active participation". Just something to think about.
But I thought you might find the link below interesting --
http://mypeoplepc.com/members/whitemanfamily/Catholic_Caveman/id9.html
May God bless,
Kevin
Greta,
The only question I have for you is "What are you seeking for at Mass?" Lay participation throughout maybe, or, something "more to the like of today's world we find ourselves living in, or something that doesn't require too much prayer and contemplation, adoration and reparation to Our God? Or maybe your allergic to the beautiful smell of the incensing of the altar and people?
Our ancestors came from all different parts of the world, some speaking no english. But they loved the Latin Mass, because it was HOLY. It was the Mass of the saints, which made many of them, through the use of MALE altar boys.
Latin is the Mother tongue of the Church. It is Universal, so you could go anywhere in the world and all come together in the ONE, TRUE MASS.
While your honesty can be upright, your understanding of the importance the Latin Mass appears to be lacking. I say this in a charitable way in hope that soon you will come to the understanding that the Traditional Latin Mass is Heaven on Earth. Remember, the Holy angels in Heaven bow down before the throne of God, saying, "SANCTUS, SANCTUS, SANCTUS"..The angels on the night Our Lord was born shouted out, "Gloria In Excelsis Deo." Let us be imitators of these heavenly beings who constantly behold the face of God.
In the end, it is not about Latin per se, but about the (sacred) worship of God. I think the "active participation" bit from V-II's Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy got all turned around by AmChurch in the post-Vatican II environment. The Fathers of V-II wanted the people to understand the Biblical readings and maybe the major prayers (e.g., the Collect, Offertory prayer, and Post-Communion prayer). They also wanted Latin to be retained in the liturgy, and they wanted Gregorian Chant to be restored to the mass and sung by the Faithful. Instead we have all sorts of people around the altar, the priest/presider/celebrant as the protagonist, and that oh so pedestrian, modern Church music, among other things.
If you want to see a very well done modern mass that has been improved by the addition of Anglican elements which were Catholic to begin with under the old and now defunct Sarum Use of the Roman Rite, go to the Our Lady of the Atonement RCC web site [ http://www.atonementonline.com/index.php ] where mass is celebrated in a sacred manner and in a Godward orientation. If you are willing to shell out $30 or so, Atonement will send you their mass DVD. It is superb! Or you can go to San Antonio, TX to attend mass in person. Please remember, these folks are Roman Catholic, not Anglican, although the founding members, including the pastor, were former Episcopalians. The AU liturgy was approved by Pope John Paul II as a fully Catholic liturgy.
Ad,
Thought provoking comment. But there should be something said concerning liturgy in a dead language, be it Latin, Aramaic, ancient Slavonic or Ge'ez, etc.
After all, "live" languages evolve... change meanings. The same can't be said of "dead" languages.
This IS My Body.
But what's the definition of "is"? Dead languages don't have that problem. What's said is meant, and what's meant is said.
Ad,
BTW, I'm closely following the Traditional Annglican Communion converting. I hope this happens sooner than later.
http://catholic-caveman.blogspot.com/search?q=TAC
Greta,
Did somebody beat you outside church when you were a child or something? Maybe, made you stop reading the Sunday funnies in order to go to Mass? Something like that?
What the heck does this crack mean: "many who are getting into this type of Mass?" Do you mean people who have attended for a long-time or others who are seeking something other than the nonsense and novelties of the comedy routine-floor show called the "New Mass" at so many parishes and choose, instead, to attend the traditional Latin Mass? I think of worshipping God as something people choose to do and not something they "get into" like a hobby or the latest fad.
What's your hang-up with Latin, especially as to claim to have been taught it and grade school and also took it in high school? I attended 8 years of Catholic school with teaching Sisters and was never taught Latin. I learned all the people’s Latin responses to the priest at Mass before I started by first grade the same way I learned English – by mimicking adults. (Memorizing the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar to be an altar boy took a little more work when I was 8!) Then, later, I learned what the Latin meant in English by following along with the priest using my Latin-English missal during Mass. It certainly doesn’t take a lifetime of studying Latin to attend Mass – the unschooled and illiterate did it for hundreds of years!! Also, I can say I participate much more actively at the traditional Latin Mass than any NO, even very pious ones, I have attended.
Finally, I seriously doubt that anyone who seeks out and attends the Latin Mass more than once is a hypocrite (as you imply) saying “saying ‘Lord, Lord’ to show how they are a little better than the other guy going to the Mass we have had for the last 40 years.” They may simply be tired of the 40-year “experiment” and are seeking the Mass that was the norm for over 1,500 years.
I too prefer Latin. It is part of my liturgical patrimony that was virtually ripped out of the Roman Rite without justification following Vatican II. I also miss Gregorian Chant, although I was exposed to precious little of it growing up in my home parish, but heard a good deal of it at a local Catholic seminary where my mother worked.
The TLM that I currently attend is full of Gregorian Chant (via the Kyriale) and other traditional hymns in Latin. We also have Benediction of the most Holy Eucharist after the twice a month low masses. Yes, we sing in Latin at our low masses! We also have a missa cantata (a high mass) the other two Sundays of each month. We have a volunteer Latin choir that started off shaky, but is now getting pretty good. They lead us, the sheep in the pews, in singing in Latin. Yes, the laity sing Latin, even in Gregorian chant! Pope St. Gregory the Great designed Gregorian Chant to be sung by non-musically inclined amateurs. It is not that hard to learn. Please believe me. Gregorian chant is much better than the crap I use to hear at modern mass, even when the "crap" was sung competently. Don't let those liberal Catholics and Modernists tell you that the people cannot master Gregorian Chant. This is a lie straight from the Father of Lies.
As I said in my previous post, V-II called for the restoration of Gregory Chant in our liturgies. We are still awaiting the restoration. I can only conclude that the hierarchs of our Church are currently in massive disobedience to the Fathers of V-II. What happened to leadership by example? As a retired Navy officer, I know what this type of leadership is. And I know that the cave-bound Marine(s) know(s) it too! LOL
"Semper Fidelis" should not be the exclusive domain of the U.S. Marine Corps, although I trust the Marines to keep it fresh and well-exercised. It should be the motto on the coat of arms of EVERY Catholic bishop. Sadly, it isn't.
The TAC's liturgy is different from the AU liturgy, although the former, when using the Anglican Missal is very much like the Tridentine Mass, although in traditional English with the Sarum Use elements found in the Book of Common Prayer as an integral part of the TAC's Anglican Masses. It is a very sacred liturgy, although I do not care for their Eucharistic Prayers which I have been told have their origin in Luther's communion liturgy (I have not been able to verify this). The good news, however, is that many TAC priests say the Roman Canon. Even if Rome doesn't recognize Anglican Orders, those traditional Anglican priests are at least moving in the right direction! The TAC liturgy when using the Anglican Missal is more Anglican than the AU Roman Catholic liturgy, the later one being a pretty good "reformation" of the Novus Ordo Missae, although more reforming is still needed IMHO. For example, the NOM does not have a real Offertory. Thus I believe that the Offertory Prayers of the TLM ought to be restored to the modern Roman Catholic liturgy, including the AU variant.
I pray that the TAC some day soon embraces full unity with the Pope of Rome, but I do not know if it will happen soon. I also firmly believe that the modern liturgy must be reformed significantly in terms of its liturgical ethos. The modern liturgy is culturally so very different from the TLM. Now I am not saying the modern liturgy is non-Catholic; it is the valid mass, but if we are to face as Catholics what is coming down the road (I have been in an apocalyptic mood for the past few months for a lot of reasons, mostly personal), we must have a sacred liturgy that brings us to the foot of the cross mystically as the three Marys and the Apostle John were at the actual foot of the Cross 2,000 years ago.
Sorry for the long post. I have been in a prolix mood lately. But it is also because this is a very great topic (re: "This Guy Gets it") that should stimulate some extensive discussions among the participating troglodytes! LOL
Thanks,
Jim C.
. . . who promises to shorten them up quite a bit next time!
Ad,
No need to apologize... excellent comment! Keep 'em coming.
But what's the definition of "is"? Dead languages don't have that problem. What's said is meant, and what's meant is said.
Maybe we should ask Bill Clinton! LOL
I forgot about this re: Latin, etc. You are absolutely correct. One thing to note, however, is that the KJV type of English, even with modest emendations to account for different meanings today for some words used back then, is pretty stable. Also, the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics of the Byzantine Rite have very "successful" liturgies in the vernacular, yet they respect their traditional liturgical languages as they should. And of course as V-II says (Liberals totally ignore this), Latin should have "pride of place" in the liturgy.
See? Not that long a post! LOL
Greta,
Allow me to put this as nicely as I can: Are you smoking dope??
My eight year old son serves at the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) and he understands everything. What's your excuse?
You are a perfect example of the type of Catholic that has been formed by the Novus Ordo and the post-Vatican II nonsense. Total Protestantized BS.
As for my family, we will ONLY attend (and serve) at the TLM, the "Mass of the Ages" and the Mass of the Saints.
Semper Fi
Greta, I knew exactly what was going on when I went to my first TLM. I had a missal but after a while I didn't need it. Thankfully, I have a parish that does the Novus Ordo as welll as it can be done but if I was in a bad parish and had regular access to a TLM I'd be gone in a flash.
Wow, not good to make a comment about the Latin Mass. I would bet I have been to more Latin High Masses than many of those who recently started going to Latin Masses. Six days a week and on days when we sang in the choir, we often had two masses.
Here is my thoughts once again. Maybe I will not do such a crap job this time. Since it has been kind or reintroduced in most areas of the US, a number of people have gone to this 'NEW" mass to see what it is all about. If you have done something a thousand times and then not seen it for about 30 years, it is very strange on return. My comment about knowing the full aspect of the mass came from a very strong pastor who was there the entire time I was in school and about 10 years after. we did have Latin as part of the daily curiculum all the way through grade school and high school. We also have every phase of the mass, every little movement and each part of the various vestments and all the various things used at the mass in detail. We studied the history of each part of the mass back to the various places in the Bible. My siblings and I over the years have talked with a lot of people around the country and find few really know what mass of any type is really all about. Our parents were also very strong on all the aspects of every sacrament. We were a very Catholic family in the full sense of the word. I value that teaching and what it means for me when I go to mass.
However, as I have gotten older and therefore find myself starting to be slightly challenged, I find remebering some things from long ago harder to bring back. But the memory of all the various things that tied together to form the intricate weave of the mass remains. Part of me says that to go to mass has to mean that each part is tied to the entire part. The server holding the vestment with a certain hand when the incense is used, the number of times the incense is moved and where it is moved all play a part in the full meaning. How the priest dons his vestments and in what order has significance. The number of times the priest stand and sits and where he does this and the action of the server are important. To me, the Latin mass had a very special place in my heart that brings back my long dead mom and dad, the wonderful if cantankerous priest now also long gone, the nuns who brought the class the various elements with such care in handling that we might see and touch and understand.
So I went a number of times and what I saw seemed to take me away from the mass and back in memory and time. I felt like I was in a place that was a memory rather than a reality. Other children long forgotten were in my mind. So much had been forgotten that I did not feel like I was worthy to participate. But I continue to go about once a month.
I think what inspired my comments were from talking to many of the younger crowd after the mass. I am always far more interested in the young than hanging out with the old people like myself. As JPII said, they are the springtime of the Church. When we talked, it seemed to me as if no one really knew much about what was going on and many were actually confused to a point where they did not feel in many ways comfortable to be there, but somehow felt that this mass was the in thing to the serious Catholic. One of the reasons for the change was that many coming along about the time of Vatican II were not being schooled in the full aspect of the mass and sadly, parents often did not spend the time or energy to help their children learn the faith. I hear people blaming the Church for not teaching the faith and my question is when was it the Church job to raise kids. My parents were the prime responsibility and they did far more than pay tuition for a Catholic education, but were involved to understand what I was taught and what they needed to emphasize.
From reading the comments, I apologize if I offended anyone that has really gone to the full effort to learn this wonderful mass. But I will say if so, you are the exception. We started with about 100 going to this mass and now seeing it drift down to about 60. Of those, about half are old folks who are probably like me in some long forgotten memory lane. My point on the Lord Lord part was that about half the rest of those going are there to be able to say they go and thus place themselves just slightly above others. There is the complete fullness in the Mass we have in most of our Churchs. Yes there are liturgical abuse that is far to common. But this also applies to the Latin mass and I have seen this on several occasions where the priest and servers were not well trained or informed.
But I am happy that so many here are not of this type and have found something that brings them closer to God. After all, that is why we have the Mass and everything else in His Church. He thirst for our soul and only we know if we are on the right path be it Latin or English. Only the person knows in the dark of night if what they are doing involves pride something for involves pride or a humble desire to find a way that serves Him better and fills us with all we need. I need desperately what God wants to give me and trust him to help me find it.
In the end, we all need to say with our heart, soul, and mind Lord, I am not worthy to receive you under my roof, but only say the Word, and I am healed.
If I sounded judgemental and in error all have my humble appologies from this old lady.
But read back what you wrote and ask if there is pride in your pockets. He loves to give us pride and it is the deadliest of all sin. It bites me daily. May the full peace of Christ be with each of you.
Greata,
The number of Traditional Latin Masses (High Mass or otherwise) that you've attended isn't the point.
When you make blanket statements about how "most attending don't even know what's going on" is not only factually incorrect, but percieved by many as arrogant and simplistic.
I would dare say that a rather large percentage of the over 400 visitors per day to this blog are those who attend the TLM. But we don't attend such (as you said) because we think we're "cool because [we're] into foreign flicks". We know our Faith and we take it seriously. And you know... most of us aren't senior citizens longing for the days of our youth. Most of us haven't reached our 50th birthday.
So I hope you understand why many toook your initial comments as insulting and condescending.
But thank you for your most recent post.
Greta,
You sound like a nice person, but very much ill-formed. Please don't take this personally. A few things you said that stuck out in your last post:
"It is very strange on return" (the Latin Mass)
Don't know if "strange" would be quite the description I'd use,....maybe, "reminiscent" or "I feel as if I'm home again."
"We were very Catholic"
That depends on what your definition of being "very Catholic" is. I can't beleive for the life of me that any of our parents and grandparents (who we believed to be "truly Catholic" can visit a novus ordo mass and not gasped at what is taking place there, my goodness, even the Pope has stated that in the new mass it is being given the liturgists the right to invent the mass through their own imaginations. (What more do you need?)
"I am always more interested in the young people, than "hanging out" with the old."
Well, I hope that one day you will come to the realization of the importance and genuiness of the True Mass which is the Latin Mass. And then be able to convey what a gift we have of this Holy and Beautiful Mass to the younger generation, who have been born out of complete ignorance of it, not due to themselves, many a times.
"I hear people blaming the Church for not teaching the faith."
Well, where in heaven's name did we learn it to begin with? Does the names Peter and Paul sound familiar?
How can parents teach their children if they are Not being taught it in their Churches and from their priests?
Granted there are some parents who don't even attend Mass, yet they go and drop off their children for CCD or PSR and return an hour and half later to take them home,..I know, I use to teach these children. But, the fact still remains that the chief responsibilty of a priest is to SAVE SOULS! And many there are who don't even care about their own souls, let alone those who they are suppose to be shepherding!
"full effort to learn this wonderful Mass"
I don't know about others here, but for me I didn't look at "re-familiarizing" myself with this wonderful Mass as much effort, but as an "anxious desire" to unite myself to it after discovering that we even had a Latin Mass here. For me, it was like finding my way home again. It was feeling as though I was entering a part of heaven...it was giving to God as much as I, a sinner, could give of myself before, during and after this Holy Mass (from heaven).
"About half the rest of those going are there to be able to say they go and thus place themselves just slightly above others."
I found the same at the Novus Ordo...and no one is above anyone else.
Finally, you say,
"There is the complete fullness in the Mass we have in most our Churches."
What is your definition of "fullness"? This line comes from modernistic thinking and from those who have been inculcated into believing that the novus ordo has the same plentitude of graces as the Traditional Latin Mass...WRONG!
Either, you are set to the ways of the modernistic thinking willfully or out of ignorance; maybe both. But you are only deceiving yourself.
Around here...most older people pray the Rosary during Mass because in the days when the Latin Mass was the norm, many spoke only French therefore their participation was through the Rosary. As Vir quoted..."Silent prayer IS active participation".
Once again those who are posting seem to be taking a word or two and twisting them. I find everyone very defensive. Anyone who knows me would laugh if someone thought I was a "modernist" in any way. My priest has felt my sting when we stray from the Mass as it is supposed to be prayed. I fought changes in the church during the recent restoration to keep the tabernacle where it is supposed to be. I fought against the bishop on multiple issues he was failing to stop.
The latin mass I go to each month is a long drive from me of over 80 minutes each way because our bishop has placed a lot of things in the path of any priest who wants it in their parish.
Each day I travel about 45 minutes each way to go to mass because those closer have many things going on that are clearly not supposed to be there.
Yes, it is strange to go to a latin mass after not seeing one for 30 years. Sorry if strange is the wrong word but that is indeed a fact for me. What I reflected was what I saw over many months with those attending as we gathered outside. I tried to stay back to answer questions to the best I could remember them. My memories of those conversations I related in the fact of what I heard and saw of those there and yes, there were a lot of things being said that sounded an awful lot like pride that they were somehow attending a better mass, without really being able to say why they felt that way. Too often I found them putting down the Mass that is most seen in our country by a wide margin as if it was somehhow less worthy or brought about less grace. The mass I drive to each day is done with a great deal of honor and grace and we often have latin mixed in and the words and actions said the right way. There is nothing lacking from this mass in any way that is better in the Latin Mass as far as God is concerned and the Pope has said the same thing.
I am glad that no one here is failing in any way with regard to pride or education. One day I would love to meet all of you and hear you speak about the Latin Mass and your understanding of all it offers. I feel that obviously I could learn a lot from a group so well informed.
As to teaching children, God gave them to parents, not the Church. Parents are to take them to Church and not depend on CCD or others to insure their souls. If you remember the master who gave his servents gifts, he did not judge how others used what was given them, but what they did with the what he gave them. You can use the Church as a tool which only a fool would not do, but you are to check to see if the Church is actually teaching them the faith as it should and then you need to reinforce that with your life example of living the faith. I firmly believe that at judgement day, a parent will be judged by the way they bring Gods gift to them back to him. The Church does not owe you an education, but you are called to seek it out and to study it. St Peter and Paul left behind a legacy, but we are called to go to that Gospel and read it. If the priest or bishop is in error, it is up to you to know that and to bring it up to help them understand. yes, the shepherd has a duty to teach, but you have a duty to seek out and learn and to teach the gift God gave to the parents.
One lady told me last week that she worked out of the home for years so her kids could go to Catholic Schools. What she failed to understand was when her kids left the Church that what was taught to them was in many ways wrong and she had not watched or listened to make sure she was not paying the price for error. That is why the Church has given us the Cathecism. There is almost everything one needs to know and provided in clear language for the layity. How many parents have yet to read it themselves so as to be prepared to teach their children.
As to the old people praying the rosary in the old days at mass, you are correct, a lot of them did. we were never allowed because we were at the mass and were supposed to know what was happening before our eyes and in our hearing. The rosary was said each day as a family in the evening before bed. But if some believe that it is right to pray the rosary during Mass, I would ask them why they pray the rosary and if our Lady would think that it would be good to do while the actual sacrifice of her son is before us in real or why the wood is still green.
I wouldn't say that everyone is "defensive" or twisting words. (As I tried to point out on my comment timed 4:45) I will say that quite a few folks did find you initial comments shallow and insulting/condescending.
Greata, when you made your blanket comments, you really shouldn't be caught off guard when folks respond with specifics pointing out your factual errors.
Never mind. Not worth the time on this issue.
Greta,
The Latin Mass has all the plentitude of graces. Unlike the new mass. I attended the new mass for many many years until I learn that we had a latin Mass here. It was day and night between the two. It is quite sad that you have not arrived at this realization. I don't know what more there is for you to see this..The latin Mass is the same wherever you go, unlike the new mass where anything goes..Clown messes, teddy bear messes, magic messes, beach messes, the list goes on. If you think all these messes have the same amount of grace (as if the above even has any) you are kidding yourself. I think you really have a deep inner problem that you will not truly let surface. And, you better believe I have met Many novus ordo attendees who have their noses up higher than many that attend latin Masses. Maybe you have no problem recieving communion from a priest dressed as a clown, or by a lay Eucharistic "minister" dressed as Satan...but we Latin goers do. Pope after pope were right when they spoke of the errors of modernism. You prove them to be right.
Hail3N1 said...
I said I was done, but can't resist. I am like the old widow and the judge. persistent
There is no disagreement on the sad state of affairs on the mass said improperly. If you read my post, I travel a long way to go to the Latin Mass because of restictions placed on them by my bishop. I also drive a long way each day to go to mass in the current form after Vatican II. I drive past 4 Catholic Churches to get to the parish I now call home, a Dominican Parish of St Gertrude which is also a priory with incoming Dominican first year novices. We are blessed with 12 this year. There is nothing approaching a clown mass or anything else but the pure mass at this parish. We have several parts of the mass in Latin. The servers have great instruction and the people who come here are very solid in their Catholic faith. We have a lot of Catholics here with 8 to 10 kids and a regular weekly teaching on NFP in its pure form, a very extended teaching period to make sure those getting married are fully aware of church teaching in all areas. This easter we will have 15 new Catholics who have gone through a very extended teaching period on what the Catholic Church teaches. For almost 8 years from 1994 through 2001 we had weekly Mellenium lectures with priest from all around where each of the encyclicals were taken apart for their truth and beauty starting with Humanae Vitae.
Some seem to think I have an issue with the Latin Mass. My only comment was that after 30 years of not seeing it, it was "strange" to see it again. I did not say it was bad or wrong or not beautiful or anything negative, only my reaction was it seemed strange to see it again. I recently went back to my 40th reunion of my graduating grade school class and it was strange going back into that same school I had not seen in all that time. What was strange was how little it had changed.
So I will tell you that all the priests say the same thing as I did that the mass I go to at St Gertrude gives me everything that the Latin Mass does and the same is true the other way.
as to the clown mass, I would think if they wanted to, the same group could turn the latin mass into a festival of clowns if they chose to. If they did, it would not be the same either.
But boy you all seem quite defensive which I guess is good only this time you are picking on someone that agrees with you. And I still say that many of the young yuppies who go to where I go for the Latin mass are more interested in telling people they go as if to show how holy they are than I would wish to see. Pride is after all the greatest sin. I did not say that those here are the same, only made the observation of what I saw there and have heard the same thing from those I trust who go elsewhere. Not all, but too many. So lets end this and be friends. I am too old to have enemies that are good Catholics who like to mix it up with Satan.
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