Missal Envy
Who says there's no difference?
I've been saying for quite some time now that I have a vastly greater love for the Traditional Latin Mass than for the New Mass of Paul VI.
I think one illustration that might help is just go to this page and see the two missals compared side by side. To say that there's a difference is an understatement. Granted, the Tridentine Mass is longer in time, but look at exactly what's being said... and what's not.
My take... the New Mass simply can't hold a candle to the Tridentine Mass when it comes to reverence, respect, and sacredness. I see the New Mass as a shadow... a mere shell... of the absolute and utter Catholicity of the Latin Mass.
What do you think?
Who says there's no difference?
I've been saying for quite some time now that I have a vastly greater love for the Traditional Latin Mass than for the New Mass of Paul VI.
I think one illustration that might help is just go to this page and see the two missals compared side by side. To say that there's a difference is an understatement. Granted, the Tridentine Mass is longer in time, but look at exactly what's being said... and what's not.
My take... the New Mass simply can't hold a candle to the Tridentine Mass when it comes to reverence, respect, and sacredness. I see the New Mass as a shadow... a mere shell... of the absolute and utter Catholicity of the Latin Mass.
What do you think?
posted by Kevin Whiteman at
6:22 PM
10 Comments:
How does one begin to compare the Mass of the Ages, the Mass of our fathers and the Saints to this Protestantized, touchy-feely, modern street-slang English abomination?....Go figure dude!
I grew up in New Hampshire in the 70's, and recall (with a tinge of horror) The guitar masses (I sang in the children's choir, w/ guitar), The pop-psych hymns, regurgi..liturgical dancers, the whole nine yards. I was in Philly for the 80's, the poor catechesis and altar girls there.
But,
I don't know Latin, and although the Sanctus and Agnus Dei sound nice, and are fun to sing, I might as well be singing it in greek. It has to be possible to have a holy and liturgically sound mass, said or sung, in the vernacular. Maybe that's why folks went off the deep end post V-2, because they never really connected with the language of the mass, and so felt like starting from the ground-up. I don't know.
I may be squirming through 'The Mass of Creation' in Ohio, but I'd be just as lost at an Indult Mass here in Lincoln, Nebraska.
Any suggestions?
To St. Jimbob:
Yes, I have a suggestion. Get yourself a good English-Latin missal (Latin on one page, the corresponding English on the other page). As the priest says the Mass in Latin, you respond in Latin (look it up if you don't know what you're saying) or read along in English. Attend the Traditional Mass for 52 Sundays and six holy days and you will be surprised how much Latin you will understand. Please don't tell me you can't say the Agnus Dei and Sanctus in English right now. And what's the matter with Greek? Surely you know (in English) what the priest is saying when he says "Kyrie eleison" (or is your parish so far gone they never say it?).
JimBob,
FAB gave excellent advice. I would like to add that maybe you might consider looking upon learning the Latin Mass as a sacrifice.
Sure. Latin isn't exactly easy to learn... but was it easy for centuries and centuries of Catholics through out the world?
And besides... no one expects any of us to be Latin scholars. Just know enough to understand The Mass. Just like hundreds of generations before us did.
One other thing to consider... The Latin Mass was codified in the 1500's as *THE* Mass for The Western Church, but it was officially brought into being a thousand years earlier by Pope St. Gregory The Great. And even before that, the Latin Mass was in it's infancy even in the 1st century.
As far as the vernacular is concerned, it was luther that brought that about.
'Nuff said!
St. Jimbob,
Your in Licoln? Come on buddy. You're in the home of the FSSP seminary! Get involved in the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM). Once you get the hang of it, you will NEVER want to return to Luther's Mass again!
Well, I sometimes go to a Novus Ordo Mass said by the Fathers of Mercy. It's beautiful, dignified and holy too. But I will admit I'd like a more poetic translation of some of the prayers.
Ok, I get the picture. To answer FAB's question, yes we get the Kyrie once in a while.
So, is it a consensus opinion that a satisfactory Mass cannot be done in English? Or is it just the Novus Ordo, in all it's alterations from the previous form, that inspires contempt?
Can we step back, take a Tridentine Mass, and translate it into English? Would that make everyone happy?
What about the Byzantine Rite? Should we go back farther into history?
I'm not trying to foment an argument, but it seems you guys are able to answer the questions.
JimBob,
OK... sorry for not getting to the meat of your question. As far as the vernacular is concerned, I consider that to be downright dangerous.
Here's why; Mass in a live language is, obviously, in a "live" language. Live means that words evolve... they change meanings. Just look at Clinton when he asked "what's the meaning of the word 'is'?"
And people took him seriously. With that said, do we really want to play fast and loose with The Consecration?
Here is a previous post I had concerning your question:
http://catholic-caveman.blogspot.com/2005/12/forget-about-vatican-iii-what-we-need.html
And here is something from my perwsonal web p[age that is much more indepth;
http://mypeoplepc.com/members/whitemanfamily/Catholic_Caveman/id9.html
Hope this helps! If not, just go to my profile and you'll find my e-mail addy... feel free to shoot me a line.
Later, tater.
Et Catholicam Speluncam Homo
I scored a booklet Missal with the Latin Mass off eBay.
The way you describe the use of vernacular and the Consecration, one would think that it's a magic spell that has to be said precisely in the right tongue and tone to make it work.
Can the truth of God only be truly transmitted in latin? The Muslims believe that the Qu'ran can only be understood in Arabic, as if God only speaks arabic. The Holy spirit has guided the transmission of Scripture from greek and aramaic, can the Spirit not guide a proper Consecration in English?
Part of the problem is that things got all loopy after V2, but those people were already getting loopy before the Mass was changed. Look at the respose to Humanae Vitae. Clergy and Laity in this country were already straying from the Magisterium. That's why liturgy after V2 went nuts.
It would be nice to try the form and order of the Tridentine Mass, but with a faithful translation into English.
I'm looking forward to checking out the Latin mass.
JimBob,
Glad you're looking fwd to attending a Latin Mass! Just one thing I'd like to pass on to you. Remember... Mass isn't suppose to be "fun". It's suppose to be "joyful". But I'm sure you already know that!
Anyhow, you stated The way you describe the use of vernacular and the Consecration, one would think that it's a magic spell that has to be said precisely in the right tongue and tone to make it work.
Can the truth of God only be truly transmitted in latin?
As far as a "magic spell" is concerned... that's the same thing that luther and his gang use to say about the Catholic Consecration. That's where we get the phrase "hocus pocus"... from the latin said during the Consecration; "Hoc Est Enum Corpus Meum". "Hocus Pocus" was a initially a Protestant insult to the Catholic Mass.
But anyhow, I hope you had the chance to read those two references I posted. In case you didn't, here's the thumbnail version...
Language. Like I said before, English is a "live" language. Words change meanings all the time. Just look at the word "Gay".
"Dead" languages simply cannot change meanings... period. Thus, it's impossible to corrupt, or even OPEN THE POSSIBILITY for corruption when Mass is said in a dead language. Be it Liturgical (ancient) Latin for the Roman Rite; ancient Aramaic for the Chaldean Rite; ancient Slavonic for the Ukrainan Rite, etc, etc.
Bottom line, as you said It would be nice to try the form and order of the Tridentine Mass, but with a faithful translation into English.... that, my friend, is simply impossible. What is a "true and faithful translation" today, may not be such a few years (or decades) from now, right?
Like I said before, why play fast and loose with the Mass, especially The Consecration?
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