Saturday, July 25, 2009

In Defense Of The Novus Ordo Missæ
Seriously...

No... this posting isn't about the liturgical and spiritual superiority of the Traditional Latin Mass over the Novus Ordo Missæ.

Nah, I've just been wondering as to why any Catholic with even a lick of common sense and who takes their Catholicism seriously would continue to attend a parish that conducts Mass, at a minimum, in a fashioned that is watered-down, simplistic, and in many a case, quite honestly... childish.

Now that was just at the minimum. How about at a maximum? Well, that's real easy... at a maximum, there is outright heresy involved in the celebration of the Novus Ordo Mass. Period.

I have a funny feeling right now that more than a few folks reading this are ready to have their heads explode in anger. No need for any cranial fulminations. If this post (or this blog in general) pisses you off that badly, the big white "X" button in the upper right hand is there for a reason. Believe me, my world simply will not fizzle-out of existence if someone is all that upset with me.

Really.

But for those who look upon this subject with even a modicum of objectivity, stick with me. If you disagree with me after reading this, then please... comment away.

Anyhow, I've posted in the past how the New Mass in and of itself is designed to be an instrument that must fluctuate, change, evolve... yes, even the word 'mutate' works.

The New Mass runs the gamut from a serious attempt to be reverent and embracing a sense of the sacred (as best a Novus Ordo Mass could), to the outright pagan/heretical.

With all the ambiguities in the rubrics of such, it's quite simply, engineered that way. It's made to be the Do-It-Yourself Mass kit.

Anyhow, with all the conditional statements out of the way, why DO so many attend the Novus Ordo? That's real easy. We're programmed to think that way.

That's right, I said programmed.

How many times have we walked out of Mass with that nagging feeling that something wasn't 'quite right'? Or that we know deep-down inside that some of the things Father said in his sermon were objectionable, if not flat-out insulting to Christ and His Church?

Or even at it's worse... that we walk away from Mass with a feeling that we've done nothing more than ticked off another box in our to-do list? Instead of leaving Mass totally enveloped in a sense of awe, gratitude and spiritual peace... we've exited with nothing more than a shoulder shrug and a grunted hmph.

But we kept our mouths shut. We accepted it.

And why not? Western Culture has hammered into our collective brains that we're suppose to accept what's easy, simple, effortless. Anything that requires effort is strictly verboten. And let's be honest... sacrifice has become the longest four-letter word ever. And those that do accept hardships of any kind are usually sneered at and looked upon with a condescending disdain.

The Novus Ordo Catholic Mass has become almost indistinguishable from your average Protestant worship service. C'mon... how many times have we heard Protestants attending their first N.O. Mass and walk out saying things like "that was just like our service!"? And many Catholics have been just a little too comfortable with that.

But that's what our culture has ingrained in us. Go with the flow. Don't put forth any effort. Obey your oh so subtle atheistic masters. Happily accept the big-assed, ugly and equally gaudy Church Participation trophy. You don't really have to DO anything... just be there.

Don't actually make a meal. That's what Domino's is for.

God forbid you have to walk a half-mile down the road. Drive your car.

Exercise and diet are for the stupid. That's why we have liposuction and pills.

Don't have the responsibility for raising children. Wrap a condom around it and call it Social Awareness.

It really is unnecessary to take God that serious. That's why we have the Novus Ordo.

________________________________

UPDATE!

I've received a couple of thought provoking comments so far (TCM and Ingrid). Both of them correctly point out that Christ is present in the Eucharist during the Novus Ordo Missæ. I've always maintained that the same.

Here's what I'm getting at -- besides the fact that a side-by-side comparison of the two liturgies clearly demonstrate how liturgically weaker the New Mass is, I'd like everyone to consider this; shouldn't there have been a seamless transition between the Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo back in the late 60's and early 70's? Of course... but that never happened.

The Church has been in an veritable nose dive ever since. There simply is no getting around that.

But why has The Church undergone such declines? Simple. The Novus Ordo doesn't expect anyone to take up their cross daily. That's much too painful and inconvenient.

28 Comments:

Blogger TCN said...

It is possible to close off the nonsense and just SEE Christ on the Altar, even in the NO. It just isn't very easy to do so.

One tip: wear the veil and nobody will try to grab your hand for the Our Father. Works really well. Also, remember to receive on the tongue. They won't ask you to be a "greeter" or an "extraordinary minister" or any of the other faux "ministries" either. Plus, you just might model the respect others are lacking.

The priest may be a disaster, but Christ is still there. In time, this too shall pass.

10:56 AM  
Blogger Ingrid said...

Even though I in general agree with you point, I have to disagree that all novus ordo masses are bad and that stuff. Yes, I think it is true that the novus ordo Mass isn't the Mass that came out of natural evolving, and that it is more difficult to focus on God during one (especially if it is versus populum).

However, recently I have been attending novus ordo Massen, celebrated ad orientem, either in vernacular or in Latin, and it was simply amazing. I can only hope that one day all novus ordo Masses will be done in such a way (cause I don't think this Mass wil go away, but has to co-exist with the TLM).

12:46 PM  
Blogger Confiteor said...

Well, the Novus Ordo won't go away anytime soon, but I guess we can still hope and pray for the day when it will die a very necessary death.

Even when you dress it all up and smear lipstick all over it, I for one still cannot get past the fact that it was CREATED by a Modernist like Bugnini. I wouldn't trust Bugnini with my child's catechism class let alone a reform of the Roman liturgy.

1:09 PM  
Blogger Robert said...

I seriously doubt that folks "reading this are ready to have their heads explode in anger." I'm not in the least bit angry about what you said....although I think you've missed the proverbial boat.
It was because of folks with your attitude towards the New Mass that the powers that be forbid the Latin Mass for so long.
I don't make a habit of going to Protestant services, but I did attend a Baptist service not long ago. Trust me....the Catholic Mass is nothing like that.

3:14 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Actually Robert, what I typed was "more than a few folks". Never did I allude that it was all. BTW, I have actually had comments from so-callled "Progressive Catholics" telll me that my blog "makes their heads want to explode". Hey... their words, not mine.

I also think that you're putting the cart before the horse. How in the world could "folks with your attitude towards the New Mass" have anything to do with the TLM being essentially buried? You insinuate that it's because of "folks like me" that entailed the TLM being done away with? In actuality, you've got it backwards.

But I do agree with you concerning the Baptists. But I would also suggest that you (for educational purposes only) take a gander at what's going on at your average Episcopalian, Lutheran or on the outside chance, certain Presbyterian services. Fairly indistinguishable from happens at most (if not all) of the more "progressive" parishes.

And what happens at the "Progressive Communities" eventually creeps into the mainstream.

But I digress, there simply is no getting around the fact that Catholicism is making a nose-dive since the inseption of the Novus Ordo.

Coincidence? I think not.

3:36 PM  
Blogger Adeodatus49 said...

It was because of folks with your attitude towards the New Mass that the powers that be forbid the Latin Mass for so long.

Not a true statement at all! Pope Paul VI suppressed the TLM when the new mass became "official" on the first Sunday of Advent in 1969. He didn't wait for "folks with your attitude toward the New Mass" to start having that "attitude" which they couldn't have in the first place before they experienced the New Mass!

Even then it wasn't suppressed entirely. For example the SSPX is/was a society of apostolic life in union with Rome, i.e., without the "problems" that followed the troublesome episcopal consecrations of 1988. Even then it took the "SSPX problem" of 1988 to authorize the Indult Latin Mass under the terms and conditions of the Papal document, "Ecclesia Dei," and its (Ecclesia Dei) Commission.

6:59 PM  
Blogger Greta said...

how about the famous dancing in for wedding event as seen on this Catholic Deacon blog site

http://deacbench.blogspot.com/2009/07/best-wedding-processional-ever.html

Will this be next in Catholic Churches?

12:07 AM  
Blogger Former Altar Boy said...

You ask why any Catholic with common sense would continue to attend the Novus ordo. Because many of them -- two generations worth - only know that Mass. It is human nature to be comfortable with the known and fear the unknown.

The majority of the world's population was not alive when the NO came in, so they grew up never knowing the beauty of the traditional Latin Mass. Because the NO did not "feed" many of the older adults who did know the TLM, they just quit going, taking their kids with them. Thus, their kids grew up without the Church and now have no interest in joining (fear of the unknown).

Then, again, you have the crowd who pushes themselves into "liturigal" positions either becausd they crave power, attention, or because they hate the Church and are trying to change it from within to their inage of what it should be. Because they seem to operate with the approval of the pastor (who, too often, have abandoned their leadership role), the sheep think this is the Church approves of the nonsense.

I attended a funeral recently with a reverently conducted NO, but no matter how well it might be done, it NEVER rises to the awe and beauty and transcendent nature of the Church's classical Mass.

10:18 AM  
Blogger Baron Korf said...

So if they revised the GIRM with stricter guidelines but kept the format the same (say the same as what the Holy Father celebrates) you would be fine with it because it would no longer mutate?

2:42 PM  
Blogger Baron Korf said...

Also most of us are content to follow the direction of the Holy Father and if the Mass is good enough for him, its good enough for me.

2:48 PM  
Blogger Helen said...

It's hard to imagine that the Holy Father would condone these shenanigans.

(And what's the excuse for the Buddha statue in a church?)

5:11 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Baron,
Also most of us are content to follow the direction of the Holy Father and if the Mass is good enough for him, its good enough for me.

If you mean the fact that The Holy Father celebrates the TLM in his private chapel, then you're right. I agree with you.

And as far as the "what if"... well, we could what if this to death. Suffice it to say that I'd be pleased to see the NO simply scrapped.

5:27 PM  
Blogger Baron Korf said...

I'm just saying, if its good enough for his public celebrations in his own diocese, then I imagine its good enough for anyone.

But by your definition, a "Catholic with even a lick of common sense and who takes their Catholicism seriously" wouldn't be a parishioner at St John Lateran.

5:50 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

BK,
Knowing how slowly (glacially) things move in the Catholic Church, Pope Benedict has moved pretty much at light speed "re-introducing" tradition to Catholics. I'm not sure if you've heard this, but there are reports that he's going to celebrate the TLM at St Peter's.

Anyhow, I believe that Former Altar Boy said it best in his comment above.

But I have to ask... is there anything in my posting you've experienced?

7:21 PM  
Blogger Baron Korf said...

Most of my experience is of the bland sort. Nothing heretical, but occasionally inspiring. My current parish is exceptional though. We have been re-integrating chant and latin into the mass (only 'teen mass' in the country that chants the kyrie I bet).

I had not heard that he would celebrate the extraordinary form, but I had heard that Archbishop Burke would, which is wonderful. I and several others that I know would gladly take to the extraordinary form becoming the norm, but the problem is a repeat of the confusion from 40 years ago. You still didn't address the fact that only senseless or unserious Catholics would attend mass at the Pope's church. You used the same defense that we do, change comes slowly. That's why we stay. It is our parish, our home. And in the case of me and my friends, we teach. If we get the next generation accustom to Catholic sounds and smells and images, then the traditions make sense to them and they accept them easier. I won't abandon them because of mistakes that they had no hand in.

The mass is the mass. There are 20+ rites in the Catholic church but only one sacrifice on Calvary. There are merits to each, even the ordinary form.

Denigrating the holy sacrifice of the mass is unbecoming to any Catholic. Some do it by action, others by loose tongues.

10:50 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

BK,
Most of my experience is of the bland sort.

That pretty much answers it all. That's pretty sad.

You still didn't address the fact that only senseless or unserious Catholics would attend mass at the Pope's church.

Unfortunantly, you're only stating half of what I'm saying. I know you couldn't have missed the part where I said that people are programmed to think a certain way. And as FAB points out, that's exactly what's happened with the Novus Ordo.

But anyhow, I think you may have missed the link I put up showing the Index of Leading Catholic Indicators. There is not dodging this one... the NO is joined at the hip to the downward spiral there has been in the last 40+ years. As I said inthe post, there simply is no getting around that. Something about rotten fruit from rotten trees...


The mass is the mass. There are 20+ rites in the Catholic church but only one sacrifice on Calvary. There are merits to each, even the ordinary form.

The NO is a valid Mass. I've never argued against that. But I have stated that by it's very design, it leaves the opportunity wide open for abuse and scandal.

If I were to offer you a nice beef stew where there MIGHT be bits of rotten beef or even a touch or two of rat feces, would you still eat it? Would you let your kids eat it? Why not? It's probably 99% good, honest food cooked up with the best of intentions. After all, you can't blame the cook for what came in the can.

Denigrating the holy sacrifice of the mass is unbecoming to any Catholic. Some do it by action, others by loose tongues.

There is absolutely no way I could denigrate the Novus Ordo any worse than it's already done to itself.

Once the TML incorporates Barney costumes, banjoes, bongos, and a language where "this IS My Body" very well could argue what the definition "is" is... then I'll have no other option but agree with you.

5:06 AM  
Blogger Baron Korf said...

Look, I'm not saying that the changes from 40 years ago were a good idea or even that they were needed but I am tired of all this whining and denigrating of the Church. It does more to harm the reintegration of tradition into the mainstream of Catholicism than anything.

Basically you tell people that everything they have experienced, while valid (usually stated condecendingly), is nothing but a hodge podge of garbage. Their encouters with the divine, receiving God Himself, their prayers, the landmarks in their lives, all of it is a bunch of clown-faced, barneyfied banjoed garbage. Lets not forget the refereneces to rotten meat and feces when talking about the mass, that's very respectful of Christ's Sacrifice. 'Ya but they are doing worse' didn't cut it in first grade, and doesn't cut it now.

There is a lot of damage to be undone by both the world and bad servants in the Church. We take our orders from the Holy Father and go by his example. He stated that both forms are the Roman Rite (that means the OF is a part of you too) and that both should enrich eachother. Most agree that the OF will learn from the EF, but I trust his Holiness on this. God made him Pope, not I. That's why a lot of us sensible and serious catholics stay in our parishes. We are trying to do the job that Benedict has put before us, even though that job will probably take a few generations to complete, or at least to get back to where we were.

But go on and pontificate from here, it's your blog. Tell us how we are all either banjo players or wanna-be posers that are wasting our time and poisoning everyone. It doesn't change a thing. But really, are you helping anything or just being childish?

9:20 AM  
Blogger ignorant redneck said...

I prefere the Ordinary Form, but only as celebrated in my Parish and other like it; that is to say, IAW tradition, and what the GIRM actually sayd, not what the english language version of the GIRM in the US says--and there are differences!

That said, given the choice between a "holy ho-down mass" and the Extraordinary form--I'll go for the latter every time!

Have you ever been to an Ad Orientam OF Mass, in vernacular or Latin? It works very very well, for maintaining both reverance and Catholicity. Even Versus Populam can do so.

That being said, I moved over 100 miles, and changed Archdioceses, to get to a well celebrated OF Mass.

I've also noticed that the younger priests are working their butts off trying to improve the standards of celebration and orthodoxy in the misled parishes they have inherited!

9:32 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

BK,m
You're right... it's my blog and I can post anything I want. If that offends you, well... that's really too bad.

You don't like the fact that I've pointed out that the NO is joined at the hip with the nose-dive in Catholicsm, yet again... too bad. I can't help but notice you've failed to mention that little sticking point. Or is it that even addressing that point is much too much 1st Grade-ish for you.

And yes, the rotten meat and feces comment is entirely appropriate. And yet again, I couldn't help but notice you didn't respond to that, but held your breath and pouted.

Oh well. But really, are you helping anything or just being childish?

12:57 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

IR,
What you are getting is is exactly what I meant by "but it can be done reverently".

But here's what I was getting at concerning the NO, is is just so vague that the style of Mass conducted that you've experienced CAN be correct according to the rubrics.... just like a frreakin' "Clown Mass" can be just as acceptable.

That's the fatal flaw with the NO - Way too much room for novelty and do-it-yourselfness. Well, and the "live language" stuff I've brought up before. You know, transl;ating Latin to English, Spanish, Italian, etc, can give a damn pretty close translation... but what happens when we get away from the Indo-European languages? Just how exact is "This IS My Body"? According to Japanese, could it also just as easily translate to "This MIGHT be My Body"?

Like I said in my response tp Baron Korf, that beef stew with a touch of rotten meat or rat feces. 99% of that stew is good-to-go, but to you REALLY want to risk it?

In the meantime--- good comment. Keep 'em coming.

1:04 PM  
Blogger Baron Korf said...

You group them all together as if the clown masses and the hermenutic of continuity masses (like my parish and the Holy Father's masses) are the same. If we are going to go on that route, how about linking the SSPV and other sedevantist groups to the faithful celebrations of the Extraordinary Form and throw that rat turd in your stew? Heresy is Heresy, rank and foul.

You asked an initial question in your post about why we stay, I answered that. There are many parishes I would not step foot in, but that does not condemn my parish anymore than yours. I drive 25 city miles to my church since I've moved because of the good things that are happening there. Including the occasional EF mass.

I ignored the nose dive connection because I think you have it exactly backwards. Yes they are connected but I think the formulation of the GIRM and the subsequent liturgical madness are more symptomatic of a problem, rather than the source. Much in the same way that the Reformation, which happened under the auspceces of the TLM (though before it was formally codified by St Pius V). But that is something that historians and scholars can look at and determine later.

My concern is to help guide the faithful back. Many aren't ready for such a sudden jump, so they need help. Whether the OF gets disbanded or not is not something a layman like myself is concerned with, that is the business of bishops and the pope. I just teach the authentic faith to teenagers so that they know the truth. It's not easy considering I have them for an hour and a half a week plus mass while the culture has them the rest of the time. Sadly I can't count on the parents formation in this matter either so individually they are either a help or a hurt.

If I can drill the importance of the mass into their heads and what it is there for, hopefully they will pass that on to their children, and so if they do make another sudden change they will know that the mass is the mass and that their obligation remains the same.

As for being offended, meh, your little scribblings don't really bug me much. In fact I like most of your posts. However I can't stand by and let someone insult my pastor, my parish and the Holy Father and let it go unanswered. Even if I know that answering won't change anything.

1:52 PM  
Blogger Baron Korf said...

Just a random thought.

The verb 'to be', of which 'is' is the 3rd person singular, is pretty constant in all languages. I'm sure somewhere there is a tribal language that has some weird rule about it, but Japanese is solid. The trickier word would be 'body'. Some languages differentiate human bodies, living bodies, etc.

Not that it matters when the Roman Canon is done in Latin. Though it would still need to be taught to the people so they understand.

2:01 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

You group them all together as if the clown masses and the hermenutic of continuity masses (like my parish and the Holy Father's masses) are the same.

But they are the same. According to the rubrics of the Novus Ordo, that is.

how about linking the SSPV and other sedevantist groups to the faithful celebrations of the Extraordinary Form and throw that rat turd in your stew? Heresy is Heresy, rank and foul.

And when exactly did I espouse heresy? You reaching (and failing miserable, I might add).

I ignored the nose dive connection because I think you have it exactly backwards. Yes they are connected but I think the formulation of the GIRM and the subsequent liturgical madness are more symptomatic of a problem, rather than the source. Much in the same way that the Reformation, which happened under the auspceces of the TLM (though before it was formally codified by St Pius V). But that is something that historians and scholars can look at and determine later.

Your history is badly flawed. The TLM had nothing to do with The Protestant Revolt. I suggest you read Luther's 95 Theses. You will clearly see that it had a whole lot more to do with Transubstantiation (and the theology behind) than just the TLM. And you also conveniently forget about something called The Catholic Counter Reformation. Whatever abuses there were in The Church, The Church corrected. Kind of like what's happening now under Pope Benedict.

If I can drill the importance of the mass into their heads and what it is there for...

And that's exactly the problem. Why in the hell should you have to drive 25 miles to find a decent parish? That's total bullshit. But that's the Novus Ordo for you. It might be good... it might not. As I've stated a hundred times before, the NO is so ambiguous, it can be damn near anything you want it to be. And THAT'S why I personally avoid it at all costs.

As for being offended, meh, your little scribblings don't really bug me much. In fact I like most of your posts.

Don't fret, your pouting doesn't really bug me much. In fact, I like most of your comments.

4:02 PM  
Blogger Baron Korf said...

"Your history is badly flawed. The TLM had nothing to do with The Protestant Revolt. I suggest you read Luther's 95 Theses. You will clearly see that it had a whole lot more to do with Transubstantiation (and the theology behind) than just the TLM. And you also conveniently forget about something called The Catholic Counter Reformation. Whatever abuses there were in The Church, The Church corrected. Kind of like what's happening now under Pope Benedict."

Well the 95 theses was also about denoucing Papal authority. I was saying it happened on the TLM's watch (I just can't spell today), not that it came of the TLM. So the mass by itself is not a sure safeguard. The current downward spiral, much like the one that led to the Revolt, had more to do with ignorance among the majority of catholics and bad formation of priests such as Luther. So I say the '70 ICEL translation, lack of guidelines, and madness in the liturgy is a sign of a deeper rooted problem.

It's not the Novus Ordo that requires me to drive 25 miles, but the mindset and formation of the priests themselves. The GIRM may still be ambigious but if you read all of the directives that have come from Rome, in particular form HE Arinze, there is much less freedom, so it is now about obedience to the norms rather than a total free for all. If you follow the documents of Vatican II, the GIRM, and Redemtoris Sacromentum, there is much more uniformity. A licitlly performed mass would have to obey all of what Rome says, not just some.

The Counter-Reformation is the parallel of the Reform of the Reform. That's why I stayed with my parish after I moved, to help continue the reforms. We are hoping in the near future to replace all the hymns at mass with the proper chants, but it takes time to build up the choir and acclimate the people to the change.

There is another church about 7 miles from my house, which I think is my geographic parish, that recently got a new pastor who is doing a lot of good there too. He plans to bulldoze the '70s pizza-hut style church and replace it with a cruxiform, east-facing church complete with altar rail, once he gets the money.

This is what we are seeing on the ground, and Papa Benedict and our new bishop have given us a boldness to move forward.

4:43 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

...not that it came of the TLM. So the mass by itself is not a sure safeguard.

That's an excellent point. And I ask you to consider this; with the exception of the Orthodox Schsim, most of Christendom stayed with Rome. The Protestant Revolt had more to do with Luther's heresy and certain Prussian Princes power-dash, than simply the TLM. But present day, there's a de-facto schism taking place, and the Novus Ordo Missæ is one of the catalysts.

It's not the Novus Ordo that requires me to drive 25 miles, but the mindset and formation of the priests themselves.

But that's my point! As much as I hate to do it, I have to paraphrase Mr. Gump; "ambiguous is as ambiguous does".

... that recently got a new pastor who is doing a lot of good there too

And may God bless him!!

have given us a boldness to move forward

And as the movie from many years ago once said -- "Back to the Future

5:29 PM  
Blogger Alexander said...

Here is the facts of the matter:

The Mass is one of the safeguards against abuse and error.

The Novus Ordo, even if done traditionally as possible with orthodox priests is STILL inferior to the TLM because it still has watered down prayers and a reduction of ritual and symbolism.

That is the whole argument in its simplest form; inferior prayers and ritual.




The reform of the reform should aim to eliminate not only abuse but all the bad options.

What bad options?

Some of the worst include:

The priest facing the people, Holy Communion in the hand, Holy Communion standing, etc.


Vernacular should be done away with as well.


There is an extremely good reason to use a liturgical language: it develops the sense of the sacred, it guards against mistranslations and ad-libbing. Thus guarding against error and helping reverence.

Once the reform the reform is complete then the NO will look similar to the TLM. At this point the NO is rendered useless because the TLM has superior prayers and symbolism.




Of course the crisis of faith has as its source a multitude of things. The NO is one of these things.

The chief architect of the New Mass (Fr. Bugnini) wanted to strip it of anything that was a hindrance to protestants. What would that be? Sacrifice, purgatory, Transubstantiation? I don’t think he succeeded fully but he did succeed in watering it down.

Besides that here are some brief points about the foundations of the New Mass from this same commision:

The draft of the general instruction of the Roman Missal in 1969 was considered heretical.

Seven protestant observers at the commission were solicited for input.

Some prayers and gestures were eliminated but Paul VI intervened to keep some in place like the “Orate Fratres” which explicitly mentions Sacrifice – yes that’s right, Bugnini and the gang wanted to eliminate a prayer about sacrifice as per his intentions:

“Pray brethren that my sacrifice and yours be acceptable to God the Father almighty”



And of course the horrible amount of options and suppressions in the NO:

Ryan Grant writes:

”All of the rites, symbolism and ritual present in the ancient liturgy have been suppressed. For example the numerous signs of the Crosses, all with theological meaning, were reduced to 3. All the rites governing the use of incense were suppressed. Ritual symbolism such as the altar boy moving the missal from the epistle side to the gospel side which symbolizes the old law passing from the Jews to the gentiles was removed, as well as the actions of the priest, outstretching his hands as Christ on the cross, or how he bows down at the confiteor to symbolize Christ weighed down by the world's sin. These things were all completely excised from the Novus Ordo.”


What I mention is only the tip of the iceberg.


Why was all this done? For ecumenism. Watering down the Mass and making traditional things optional is an attempt to attract protestants, that was Bugnini’s explicit intention from the beginning.

The NO is a house built on sand.

1:10 AM  
Blogger Alexander said...

Baron Korf wrote:


“Also most of us are content to follow the direction of the Holy Father and if the Mass is good enough for him, its good enough for me.”


This is not a very good way to think.

JPII had liturgical abuse in Papal Masses. Therefore 10 years you could say “liturgical abuse was good enough for him its good enough for me.”

But wait, he’s the Pope! He can do whatever he wants and therefore it’s not an abuse.

The question here is can the Pope be wrong? Well, yes.


It’s as if the wrongdoings of past Popes are not wrong at all and if they’re good enough for a Pope they’re good enough for us:

“JPII kisses of the Koran, then I can do it too.”

“JPII asked St. John the Baptist to protect Islam, so I can do it too.”

Not good enough? Pius XII condemned antiquarianism and yet Paul VI allowed some of it. Someone has got to be wrong here. It can’t be wrong under one Pope and then magically right under another 10 years later. The point here is that the NO is not intrinsically evil, nor is it invalid but that people can be wrong and simply not realize it (or maybe the Holy Father does realize it but feels a return to the TLM is dangerous, he did call the Novus Ordo a banal on the spot fabrication after all, who knows).

Oh yes, if its good enough for him to call it banal then its good enough for me to call it banal.



The mass is the mass. There are 20+ rites in the Catholic church but only one sacrifice on Calvary. There are merits to each, even the ordinary form.

Right but the extrinsic graces are different and since the TLM is superior in prayer and ritual then arguably one can receive more extrinsic graces from it.

1:21 AM  
Blogger Alexander said...

"There are merits to each, even the ordinary form."

One more thing…

I actually argue that there is NOTHING in the New Mass that is better than the TLM.

If there was then simply incorporate into the TLM and throw the Novus Ordo away.

I don't advocate this (because I don’t think the NO has anything over the TLM) but I am just saying if someone is going to claim positives for the NO then there is no reason these alleged positives could be placed in the TLM which is already superior in prayer and ritual anyway.

1:38 PM  

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