Sunday, June 14, 2009

Vatican II "Springtime" Update: True Mass or New Mass?

I know that this post will truly piss off many Conservative "John Paul II-We love you" type Catholics. But it's Saturday morning, and I figured, what the heck? Why not start the weekend off right!




Blogger Vir Speluncae Orthodoxae said...

PreVat2 tells it like it is!

8:57 AM  
Blogger chestertonian said...

This is a message for Cavey. You're new quote: "'We do not need a voice that is right when everyone else is right.
We need a voice that is right when everyone else is wrong.'
Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen"

GORAMMIT!!! That is a Chesterton quote! Sheen STOLE it from Chesterton!! If you weren't a trad and a brother jarhead, I'd come find you and kick your ass! Hell, I still might!!

9:56 AM  
Blogger Baron Korf said...

You're right, that does piss me off.

Such charity from the Trads!

10:08 AM  
Blogger chestertonian said...

The real quote:

"We do not really want a religion that is right where we are right. What we want is a religion that is right where we are wrong. In these current fashions it is not really a question of the religion allowing us liberty; but (at the best) of the liberty allowing us a religion. These people merely take the modern mood, with much in it that is amiable and much that is anarchical and much that is merely dull and obvious, and then require any creed to be cut down to fit that mood. But the mood would exist even without the creed. They say they want a religion to be social, when they would be social without any religion. They say they want a religion to be practical, when they would be practical without any religion. They say they want a religion acceptable to science, when they would accept the science even if they did not accept the religion. They say they want a religion like this because they are like this already. They say they want it, when they mean that they could do without it."

--G.K. Chesterton, The Catholic Church and Conversion, chapter V, "The Exception Proves the Rule"

10:12 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Baron K,
How right you are. Pointing out error is one of the most charitable things a Catholic can do. That whole "Spiritual Works of Mercy" thingee.

10:42 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

was unaware Abp Sheen "borrowed" that quote. Will correct.

If you weren't a trad and a brother jarhead, I'd come find you and kick your ass! Hell, I still might!!

Bring it on, girlfriend!!

10:43 AM  
Blogger chestertonian said...

Thanks, Cavey! 'preciate it. Sorry to blow my top. I just get royally pissed when people rip Chesterton off without giving him any credit. Sheen did that a lot. Another was C.S. Lewis.

Bring it on, girlfriend!!

Right now I'm busy kicking the shit out of commies here in Illinois, or I would. Can I pencil you in for next week?


Careful, or the ghost of General Puller will kick both our asses.

11:21 AM  
Blogger The Heresy Hunter said...

"By-Tor and the Snow Dog.... Square for battle... Let the fray begin..."

11:50 AM  
Blogger Joe of St. Thérèse said...

We all know which Mass I'm going to one day offer, that new one looks so great (sarcasm off)...Solemn TLM, most beautiful Mass on the planet

12:44 PM  
Blogger Phelony Jones said...


"I hate Illinois commies".

Not exact words, but true words :)

1:12 PM  
Blogger Adeodatus49 said...

Are you sure this is a Catholic "new mass" even of the ultimately weirdest variety? Look at he green chasuble the African-American lady is wearing. Could she not be one of those "priestesses" of the "I am Catholic on the water variety" or could this be an Episcopalian ceremony?

1:32 PM  
Blogger Coffee Catholic said...

That new mass... we can all feeeEEEEeeel the lurv.

3:32 PM  
Blogger Coffee Catholic said...

Oh! I can't remember if I told you yet, Cavies: I'm pregnant again!!!!!!! :-)

3:33 PM  
Blogger Gideon Ertner said...

It would be hilarious if it weren't so tragic... but they say the best jokes are told in the concentration camps, so keep 'em coming!

4:03 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Concentration Camps as in where Catholic priests will end up for the 'hate crime' of preaching that homosexuality is a sin..... or just where I'll end up for the high crime of not fawning over The Zero?

4:12 PM  
Blogger Former Altar Boy said...

Coffee girl,
Congrats to your and your husband.

5:22 PM  
Blogger TCN said...

Concentration camps like the ones that made saints out of priests who offered the True Mass, of course.

Also, Coffee, keep making more. Eventually we will have them outnumbered. ;)

10:46 PM  
Blogger Al said...

I would label the 2nd picture: NO MASS!!!

As for Sheen borrowing from Chesterton, true, others as well, but he did it with such style that to some extent he made it his own.

& I say this as a fan of Chesterton, Lewis & Sheen.

12:18 AM  
Blogger Lola said...

I also think photo #2, (he he he) is deplorable.

Mostly because it is probably a "rich" parish.

Who's responsible for the nonsense in photo #2?

Meaning, they can afford something beautiful and lovely and more like the first photo.

But, what is appropriate for a truly meager/poor community?

When I was a kid, we once in a while would visit a more meager of means parish. They built the school and gym first. Mass was in the plain but respectful gym for YEARS. (This comming from someone who likes the Ornate.)

I remember a recent EWTN special on the Cure of Ars and it mentioned that the parish and the Cure were quite poor, but somehow St. John Vianney managed to aquire the best for his parish. Beautiful statues, monstrances and vestments. He lived himself pretty plainly.

9:14 AM  
Blogger Baron Korf said...

Alright, then I'll be charitable and point out error too. If you wanted to really compare the two you would either need a picture of a parish that employs all of the norms set out by the GIRM and Redemptoris Sacramentem, or a pre-conciliar picture of a priest mumbling the Latin as fast as he can so he can get the mass done in less than 15 min.

I assure you both exist. I'm just saying we should be consistent, to avoid error that is.

11:26 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

I guess that passes for 'charity' in the mind of the Novus Ordo. But if you're going to give examples, at least attempt to be in the world of reality.

A picture of a parish that honestly employs all of the norms set out by the GIRM and Redemptoris Sacramentem is the exception, not the norm. No matter how much they try to "Catholic-up" their self-worship services, horizontal worship and Me-ism is the rule of the day at your run-of-the-mill N.O. community.

And I'm quite sure that examples of a pre-conciliar priest mumbling the Latin as fast as he can exist, but I have yet to see any of it. In fact, I've never even heard such a thing until I've heard anti-TLM folks bring that up as their glowing "example" of why the Latin Mass should be avoided.

And if you're going to be consistent to avoid error, shouldn't it be mentioned the NO crew that mumbles the English, Spanish, Japanese, Swahili, Mongolian, Albanian, Urdu, whatever else from the Tower of Babel as fast as he can so he can get the mass done in less than 15 min?

just to avoid error that is.

5:02 AM  
Blogger PreVat2 said...

You beat me to the punch! Well said.

Baron Korf: All I will add is...come home to the True Mass. The Novus Ordo is a complete failure, along with most post-Vatican II thinking.

6:36 AM  
Blogger Baron Korf said...

Vir: So a solemn high mass at a splendid baroque style altar was the norm before the council? I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

There are priests who did their job well before and after the council, and their were those who did their job terribly before and after the council. I'm just saying if you are going to show what was done well before, show what was well done after. If you are going to show the trash that came after, show the trash that came before. It wasn't a sudden occurence.

PV2: I am home, with the Catholic Church. I am her loyal son. You can call a liturgy that brings the Sanctissima to the the majority of the 1.2B Catholics around the world a "total failure" if you want. I'm content to stay loyal to Peter and do the work he asks. I don't have the stomach for Neo-Donatism.

8:58 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

The abuses prior to Vatican II (not simply 'the council') were miniscule, and corrected posthaste when they reared their ugly heads.

The abuses since V2 and the introduction of the Mass of Paul VI/Novus Ordo are the natural flow for a liturgy itself that is ambiguous and wide open for error to emanate from such.

"The trash" before V2 was squashed on sight. "The trash" since V2 is nurtured.

4:31 PM  
Blogger Baron Korf said...

If a priest changed the words at a low mass, how many people would even know?

Regardless of latitude on paper they still were the same men with the same authority. Unless the episcopacy was completely changed out at the conculsion of the Second Vatican Council, these same bishops that squashed trash on sight before suddenly didn't after. That's what you are asking me to believe? So why didn't these pre-VC2 bishops stop it then?

I still hold that neither picture depicts the norm of either form. Grouping my parish in with that lot is like grouping Murtha and Kerry in with the honorable members of the Armed Forces.

5:13 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Unfortunantly, many drank the "obedience without question" kool-aid. A few didn't (Cdl Ottavani, Abp Lefevbre, etc). I believe The Holy Mother has addressed such at Akita, Japan.

It's further unfortunant, that when many of the episcopacy (Abp Sheen, Abp Burke, etc.) realized what a farce "the spirit" of Vatican II really is, it was too late. The toothpaste was out of the tube.

But it really is alright. Slowly but surely, the Children of The Church who look objectivly on the situation, are accepting the reality that The Mass of Paul VI is Protestant inspired, and a poor excuse of Catholicism.

5:45 PM  
Blogger Adeodatus49 said...

And I'm quite sure that examples of a pre-conciliar priest mumbling the Latin as fast as he can exist, but I have yet to see any of it. In fact, I've never even heard such a thing until I've heard anti-TLM folks bring that up as their glowing "example" of why the Latin Mass should be avoided.

Unfortunately I had such an experience while in 7th grade. I used to serve the 6am Latin mass for a week at a time. We altar boys had the duty just like you Marines had. Our pastor would say the mass in about 15 minutes. For example, he'd rush through the prayers at the foot of the altar and not even give me time to complete my responses, all of which I had memorized as required to be an altar boy in the first place. The only time he slowed down was for the institution narrative. Everything else in the Mass of the Catechumans and the Mass of the Faithful was said at breakneck speed. What saved the Mass from being a travesty were the iron-clad rubrics which are almost totally lacking in the Novus Ordo Missae.

Now this abuse was a rare exception in my experience. I had the privilege of serving many priests' Latin Masses. My mother worked as a registrar of a Redemptorist seminary, so I had more than the normal opportunities that most altar boys are offered to serve Mass. I had never seen any other liturgical abuse except for the unfortunate experience with my own pastor.

Our assistant priest (parochial vicar in modern parlance) said a very holy mass, especially on those early winter mornings when I served him. What an experience it was for me to kneel at his side for the lead up to the Consecration and be almost the only one in the Church to hear those Sacred Words of transubstantiation uttered in hushed tones in Latin, a once pagan language turned into the Lingua Ecclesiae Viva.

Whatever possessed the reformers to give up this liturgy for the modern one?

10:52 PM  
Blogger Ottaviani said...

Baron Krof - as much as you don't want to hear it, the bottom picture comes pretty close to how a signifcant number of Novus Ordo masses are celebrated. There have been abuses in the liturgy since time immemorial, but let's not kid ourselves: saying a low mass in 15 minutes is one thing - celebrating the mass in such a way to de-empahsize its sacrificial nature and sacriligous way is another. The abuses before the council can in no way be compared to the crap that alot of faithful Catholics have to put up with every Sunday.

Also the changes in the liturgy are not infallible but a prudenital decision. It is quite possible, as the current Holy Father hints in some of his pre-Ratzinger works, that things have not worked out for the best. Being a "loyal to Peter" is no excuse to pretend black is white.

2:16 PM  
Blogger Baron Korf said...

I have moved a lot and traveled even more and never once, once, seen that kind of bull shit. It may be a significant number in raw numbers, but not in percentages. Either that or I and my friends have extraordinary luck. One sacriligious mass is one too many, but that does not taint the rest of them

Regardless, comparing the best of the best of one form and the worst of the worst of the other is still disingenuous at the best and deceitful at the worst.

I have never disparaged the extraordinary form, in many ways I like it better. I would not have a problem personally if they made it mainstream again. However that is not license for slandering the majority of parishes that are simply following the instructions from Rome.

5:35 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Ottavani hit the nail on the head. Rushing through a TLM is nothing compared to the ambiguity and the door being kicked open for error that the NO provides.

As far as the liturgy itself is concerned, the worse that can happen to a TLM is a priest rushing through.

The NO, on the other hand, spawns such bullshit as the Hula Mass, Polka Mass, Clown Mass, and my personal favorite, the Animal Blood Sacrifice Mass (

A few years back, I did a post pointing out that by it's very nature, the NO is a liturgical Petri Dish that just can't help but mutating (

5:59 PM  
Blogger Adeodatus49 said...

Animal Blood Sacrifice Mass

MSGT Cavey,

I checked out the link provided on the above subject. An African who is a Catholic bishop recommended this? How ironic! We have in this situation a Catholic bishop supposedly going astray while the Anglican Churches in Africa are holding the line against the moral and theological laxity of the PECUSA.

8:16 PM  
Blogger PreVat2 said...

"You can call a liturgy that brings the Sanctissima to the the majority of the 1.2B Catholics around the world a "total failure" if you want."

Yes, BK. I DO!

In 1965, the year Vatican II ended, and we still had that old, dusty Latin Mass that no one understood, that priests rushed through, and at which old women prayed the Rosary. We also had about 80% plus American Catholics attend Sunday Mass, 100% belief in the Real Presence, and we had close to 48,000 men in American seminaries.

Since the introduction of the Novus Ordo in 1969, we are at about 25% attending Saturday/Sunday Mass, about that same number believing in the Real Presence, and...wait for it...about 5,000 men in American seminaries.

"Total failure?" DAMN STRAIGHT!!

7:58 AM  
Blogger Baron Korf said...

Wow. That takes some real arrogance.

As I recall, the true actor in the sacraments, including the mass, is our Lord. As such a valid mass cannot be a "total failure" as God cannot fail. The leadership can fail the people, the particular graces and the capacity for grace can be lessened, our catholic identity can be confused, and our numbers can dwindle. However, the Eucharist cannot fail. If you don't get that, well then there isn't much left to say.

8:57 AM  
Blogger StarbucksMom... said...

My only comment is, thank God that JPII put forth many conservative bishops and cardinals, and that we are beginning now to see them step up, step forward. Change in the Church takes time, and we are changing back in the right direction, as Father Z. likes to say, "brick by brick".

1:59 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

"Arrogant" as in I've had the bad manners in pointing out the truth, or "arogant" in your obstinancy to look upon this with even the slightest hint of objectivity.

No... wait... you've already answered it.

4:20 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

I dunno, Starbucks Mom. The vast majority of American bishops and cardinals were appointed by Pope John Paul II, and as we know 4/5th of the USCCB was conspiquously silent during the recent Notre Shame scandal.

4:22 PM  
Blogger Simplex Vir said...

I am not a great thinker but what I believe Baron is trying to say and he is correct, is that a Priest or parish that abuses the liturgy does not invalidate the Mass. Hence if I am stuck in a situation where the only option for Mass that I have is some fairy infested, flip flop flapping, hippie Church that I will still receive the graces I need and fulfill my obligation when I assist at that Mass. The vessel (Priest) cannot affect the contents (Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity).

What Baron is missing however in claiming arrogance is that no one ever said that these masses were INVALID. They have said and rightly so that the people have abused the liturgy and that the NO is especially succeptable to abuse. So in that regard it has been a major cause for the massive decrease in the practice of the Precepts of the Church and adherance Church teachings. This is not a accusation against God the Father, God the Son, or God The Holy Ghost. Quite the opposite, it is an implication of his no good sinners that saw an opportunity to rip apart something sacred and did so with extreme prejudice.

9:49 PM  
Blogger Baron Korf said...

Simplex is half right. I am not saying that there have not been wide spread travesties that pass for liturgies since the Paul VI mass was promulgated. I'm not saying that it is superior in any way. What I take offense to is calling the validly, and in most places licitly, celebrated holy sacrafice of the mass a Total Failure.

That would imply that no grace ever came to the faithful. That nothing good has ever come to anyone that attends these masses. And that the vast majority of Catholics go to mass on Sunday in vain. That is a total failure.

And that is what I call arrogant.

10:14 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

I can't speak for any of the other contributors here, but I have personally never stated that the NO is invalid. Watered-down, ambiguous, loop-holes the size for a Mack truck to drive through, et, etc, ... yes.

Also, by it's very nature the NO simply cannot help but mutate. That's precisely what it was designed to do -- ever change and... well... MUTATE!

Arguable, the "Hula Mass" is in keeping with the rubrics of the Mass of Paul VI. As is the "Polka Mass", "Clown Mass", "Puppet Mass", and even the infamous "Animal Blood Sacrifice Mass".

Let me put it to you this way guys.... the NO CAN be said reverendly and with a certain degree of the sacred. It also have the built-in ability to lean heavily (if not outright become) vertical worship vice horizontal worship. The Novus Ordo just can't help itself. That's how it's programmed.

With that said, would any of you allow your son to hit a skateboard half-pipe with out a helmet? The chances are, he'll walk away just fine. But there's still a chance he can end up with TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury). Do you REALLY wwant to risk it?

Bottom line, do you want to play fast and loose, or "take a chance" when it comes to the Liturgy, and even with The Eucharist?

As for me, the answer is a resounding NO! Hell, and I was raised a Child of Vatican II. Once I looked objectivly on the subject, I came to the realization that the NO is Protestant-inspired and the emphasis is on us mere human beings, vice God Almighty.

5:23 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

One thing I failed to add --- the TLM, in and of itself, is perfect. Individual priests may foul things up, but the Mass itself is rock solid.

Due to it's ambiguous nature, the same simply cannnot be said of the NO. A well meaning, holy priest must actuallly BE ON GUARD to ensure he doesn't slip and slide into the Cult of Man, or ecclesial entertainment.

To think otherwise is arrogant.

5:33 AM  
Blogger Ottaviani said...

Baron - no one is saying the new mass is invalid or heretical. You'll never find me going beyound the criticisms of the new rite made by Cardinals Ottaviani & Bacci, Michael Davis or Mgsr. Klaus Gamber. Perhaps the choice of words is a bit off but if you're looking at whether the reform has been an unqualified sucess and some of the bishops would like us to believe then "failure" is an adequate adjective.

The fact that Protestants after Vatican II praised the church for changing her liturgy should be enough to raise eyebrows of average 'Joe' Catholic, nevermind rad, bad, mad-trad Catholic.

1:14 PM  

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