The Vatican Gets It Wrong...
Again
VATICAN CITY, Dec 30 (Reuters) - The Vatican on Saturday condemned the execution of Saddam Hussein as a "tragic" event and warned that it risked fomenting a spirit of vendetta and sowing fresh violence in Iraq.
"A capital punishment is always tragic news, a reason for sadness, even if it deals with a person who was guilty of grave crimes," said Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi.
Oh really? Want to talk about what's tragic and filled with sadness?
Talk to the 300,000 plus who have been found in the mass graves (and 60% of those were women and children).
Talk to those who were fed, feet first, into industrial shredder machines.
Talk to those who were thrown into vats of acid.
Talk to the people who had limbs hacksawed off.
Talk to those who were tied down and tortured to death with power drills.
Does anyone really want me to post pictures of the atrocities perpetrated by this animal?
"The position of the Church (against capital punishment) has been restated often," he said.
This "spokesman" is talking out of both sides of his mouth. There's a difference between position and official teaching. We all know what the personal opinion of many in Rome is... and what the official teaching of The Church is.
2266 and 2267 show that the lawful and just execution of Saddam Hussein surely falls into the definitions that The Church prescribes. Rare, only in cases of extreme gravity, the value of expiation (does anyone remember "expiation of sin"?)
Today I said a prayer for the soul of Saddam Hussein. And in the meantime, the words of St. Dismas, The Good Thief, keep ringing in my ears --- "... but we are getting what we deserve".
And for those who belive in that silly, naive notion that the execution of Saddam Hussein will cause more death and mayhem, let me remind you that the terrorists have never needed a reason to cause death and mayhem, just an excuse.
Again
VATICAN CITY, Dec 30 (Reuters) - The Vatican on Saturday condemned the execution of Saddam Hussein as a "tragic" event and warned that it risked fomenting a spirit of vendetta and sowing fresh violence in Iraq.
"A capital punishment is always tragic news, a reason for sadness, even if it deals with a person who was guilty of grave crimes," said Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi.
Oh really? Want to talk about what's tragic and filled with sadness?
Talk to the 300,000 plus who have been found in the mass graves (and 60% of those were women and children).
Talk to those who were fed, feet first, into industrial shredder machines.
Talk to those who were thrown into vats of acid.
Talk to the people who had limbs hacksawed off.
Talk to those who were tied down and tortured to death with power drills.
Does anyone really want me to post pictures of the atrocities perpetrated by this animal?
"The position of the Church (against capital punishment) has been restated often," he said.
This "spokesman" is talking out of both sides of his mouth. There's a difference between position and official teaching. We all know what the personal opinion of many in Rome is... and what the official teaching of The Church is.
2266 and 2267 show that the lawful and just execution of Saddam Hussein surely falls into the definitions that The Church prescribes. Rare, only in cases of extreme gravity, the value of expiation (does anyone remember "expiation of sin"?)
Today I said a prayer for the soul of Saddam Hussein. And in the meantime, the words of St. Dismas, The Good Thief, keep ringing in my ears --- "... but we are getting what we deserve".
And for those who belive in that silly, naive notion that the execution of Saddam Hussein will cause more death and mayhem, let me remind you that the terrorists have never needed a reason to cause death and mayhem, just an excuse.
posted by Kevin Whiteman at
9:59 AM
11 Comments:
Justice Antonin Scalia wrote an excellent article about the morality of capital punishment a few years ago in which he points out that the position articulated in the Catechism and in Evangelium Vitae -- that capital punishment is legitimate only when necessary for the defense of society -- is inconsistent with 2,000 years of Catholic teaching that weighs heavily in favor of retribution -- repairing for the harm done by the criminal act -- as the primary purpose of punishment. He points out:
There have been Christian opponents of the death penalty, just as there have been Christian pacifists, but neither of those positions has ever been that of the Church. The current predominance of opposition to the death penalty is the legacy of Napoleon, Hegel, and Freud rather than St. Paul and St. Augustine.
Here's a link to "God's Justice and Ours," by Antonin Scalia, published in First Things in 2002. It should be required reading for everyone whose thinking is confused on this subject.
http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0205/articles/scalia.html
As I understand the teaching on the death penalty in the CCC, I don't believe that one can make the case that it was realistically an option for the Iraqis to incarcerate Saddam Hussein.
Maybe, maybe, if he were held in the U.S. But the Iraqis simply could never have secured him.
That's a pretty big maybe, Paul. Almost as bif as the "IF" in the CCC where it states If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient.
Bottom line, the son of a bitch got what he so richly deserved.
I wish the soldiers who dug him out of his hidey hole had simply tossed a grenade down it so we could've avoided all this rigamarole.
Just a note: I think your hot-link to the Catholic Catechism maybe dated. The Magisterium revised #’s 2266 and 2267 in 1996 to bring the Catechism more in line with JPII’s encyclical “Evangelicum Vitae.” The rewording may be viewed at:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm#I
“First Things” published several follow-up articles on the death penalty to the referenced article by Scalia. While I recognize Justice Scalia as a legal authority, he is not our Magisterium and for Catholics, the Magisterium is the final word on Catholic doctrine.
Scalia makes an argument (I think rightly so) that the Constitution is a “dead” document. But I think extending the condition “dead,” to the deposit of Catholic faith is incorrect for it would deny the promise of Christ that the Spirit will continue to enlighten us. Granted the Magisterium is confined by its own Tradition, but rightly develops our deposit if faith as the Spirit moves it to do so by re-expressing our eternal truths more fully.
“First Things” published several follow-up articles to Scalia’s 2002 piece. One in 2004 is entitled: “Capital Punishment: The Case for Justice” by J. Budziszewski, Professor of Government and Philosophy at the University of Texas at Austin.
http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0408/articles/budziszewski.htm
In “Capital Punishment: The Case for Justice,” Mr. Budziszewski argues that mercy and justice are rationally irreconcilable. Since Mr. B’s reason cannot reconcile a simultaneous co-existence of justice and charity, Mr. B eloquently offers his faith-filled explanation of satisfying the needs of divine retribution by the intervention of the divine surrogate.
Retributive justice, Budziszewski argues, forbids the magistrate, the community’s agent, from letting crimes go unrequited. But the magistrate does not bear the burden of requiting them to the last degree. The magistrate may grant clemency and moderate the deserved punishment. The magistrate, Budziszewski explains, in the temporal world must imitate both God’s justice and love; sometimes stressing the former, other times allowing the latter.
If the finite is to invade the infinite, it can only do so by invitation and on common ground. Jesus Christ provides the invitation that allows us to participate in His kingdom. The common ground, the good news revealed in his words, life, death and resurrection is that, the method of participation in the kingdom is charity. The virtue of charity is common ground with the divine because God has given human beings greater potential to reflect His image in charity than in our pretension of producing His justice. The Book of Job at least tells us that much. Why God has not elected to illuminate mankind on justice, I don’t know. But he has elected to remove the veils on the demands of charity, especially in the NT.
Properly understood, justice and charity illuminated by revelation must be harmonious and never conflicted because all virtues are consonant in the mind of God. The demands of justice are identical to the demands of charity.
Therefore, according to #2267, I interpret the moral justification for capital punishment must be charity toward the criminal. That is, we may kill him only if prudence tells us doing so increases his chance of redemption.
Pel
Excellent points you raise, Pel. And in my own Neanderthal erudite way, I'll stick with my conclusion that the son of a bitch got what he so richly deserved.
Also, the DP is an excellent example of expiation.
In the western US in the 1870s, there were no prisons to send people off to. Hanging dangerous criminals was more widely acceptable. In the western US in 2007, there are secure prisons available to send dangerous criminals, so the DP is less needed.
If the state can not protect the innocent from convicted criminals, that is precisely when the Church allows for the DP. And, as I understand it, only for that reason. Not for vengeance, deterrence, or cost savings.
It is not difficult to want to see killers killed. It is quite easy to look at the facts and circumstances of the crime and cry for a punishment fitting the crime. But the reason we are so upset by the crimes is that they take away the human dignity of the victim. That taking way of human dignity is the same thing we do to the offender when we remove his humanity and want him dead.
Jesus gave us a tough challenge:
"You have heard that it was said, `You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:43-48
Sometimes mercy is more useful than justice. It certainly will be what I pray for when I stand before Almighty God.
Anon,
Excellent points you raise. But I have one question.... do I have the stain ofmortal sin on my Immortal Soul if Iadhere tothe DP as The Church has defined such for almost 2,000 yrears?
Anonymous said:
"In the western US in 2007, there are secure prisons available to send dangerous criminals..."
They're bottomless pits, I tell you. NOBODY ever escaped from Huntsville, here in Texas. Except those seven guys from 4 years or so back...who shot the Irving policeman.
I think, hey, Iraq is in civil war - what jail can survive civil war?
Histor
Is the question of whether you are in mortal sin to anon? That is not for him/her to judge.
I am just a guy in the pew, but I should think that if you adhere to the teachings of Mother Church, then you are safe.
Do you mean "adhere to the DP" as in actually participating in an execution or in supporting the concept, say voting for pro-DP politicians, etc?
If you have a more aggressive support of the DP than the Church teaches, say for vengeance, or have a more direct role, say in participating in an execution, then I would not take it too lightly. I'd pray about it and talk to a priest.
Taking a human life is certainly a serious matter, but whether you are in mortal sin also depends on your level of knowledge, and full consent of the will.
Our Blessed Lord taught us the determination of sin is in our human heart. Only you know whether you are adhering to Church teaching or in an occasion of sin, say engaging in vengeance.
But perhaps you are just making a rhetorical point with anon, eh?
Thorsty,
Voting for a pro- DP politician, or participating in an execution are not sinful. If there is an official Church Teaching (and not any given cleric's opinion) that says otherwise, could you please post that here?
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