Saturday, April 25, 2009

The Other Abu Ghraib
Bad Americans... BAD AMERICANS!

There are two wings to Abu Ghraib prison. In one wing, American personnel humiliated Iraqi prisoners by putting them on dog leashes, etc. In another wing, Saddam Hussein's son beheaded women, etc.

Which wing are you more familiar with?

The Defeatocrats and their propaganda machine (aka: MSNBC, CNN, The New York Times, NPR, etc.) are yet again resurrecting Abu Ghraib prison and all the "torture" that took place there. But here's the rub... which wing do you think their hypocritical rage is aimed at? (By the way, should I even bring up Nancy Pelosi knowing/not knowing about waterboarding?)

Here's some of the article from from back in 2004; (Emphasis mine)
    One journalist present was New York Post's Washington bureau chief Deborah Orin, who wrote of "savage scenes of decapitation, fingers chopped off one by one, tongues hacked out with a razor blade – all while victims shriek in pain and the thugs chant Saddam's praises."

    Noting that "Saddam's henchmen took the videos as newsreels to document their deeds in honor of their leader," Orin added, "but these awful images didn't show up on American TV news."

    The following, according to the State Department report, were routine in Iraq during Saddam Hussein's rule:

    - Medical experimentation

    - Beatings

    - Crucifixion

    - Hammering nails into the fingers and hands

    - Amputating sex organs or breasts with an electric carving knife

    - Spraying insecticides into a victim's eyes

    - Branding with a hot iron

    - Committing rape while the victim's spouse is forced to watch

    - Pouring boiling water into the victim's rectum

    - Nailing the tongue to a wooden board

    - Extracting teeth with pliers

    - Using bees and scorpions to sting naked children in front of their parents

    Saddam also routinely tortured and murdered women. The daily newspaper Babel, owned by Uday, Hussein's eldest son, contained a public admission on Feb. 13, 2001 of beheading women who were suspected of prostitution.
Let me ask you again... which wing of Abu Ghraib are you more familiar with?


Blogger Former Altar Boy said...

While more in the plain criminal activity category, rather than torture, let's not forget Hussein's son who had his driver tour him around town looking ofr pretty girls to rape, after which they were murdered and their bodies dumped.

9:02 AM  
Blogger Beer, Bicycles and the VRWC said...

isn't it odd how the Left refuses to acknowledge what REAL torture looks like?

1:45 PM  
Blogger Adeodatus49 said...

Everything you say is correct--100%. Let's also recognize that the latest developments in the Obama Administration vis-a-vis alleged torture with alleged approvals of Bush Administration officials is largely political grandstanding. That said, the Bush Administration's policies regarding these harsh interrogation practices--i.e., torture, alleged or otherwise--has virtually justified the torture visited upon U. S. prisoners of war in North Vietnam and in the jungles of South Vietnam, and other wars. Big mistake!

I took an oath on at least four occasions in my life to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. I did not take an oath to condone these practices, and I perceive that the Bush Administration shamed me, and all other servicemen and women, and the entire country by resorting to these practices, or worse, sending these miscreants off to countries such as Egypt and maybe Turkey for those authorities to "prep" the prisoners for interrogation.

This just shouldn't be done by Americans. Our future POWs are going to pay the price for the extremely poor judgment of the Bush Administration in this regard.

As far as Abu Ghirab, this is a lesson in the failure of leadership perhaps emanating from the senior American military leadership in Iraq at the time down to the lowest NCO in the prison itself. I am particularly incensed over that female USAR (or National Guard) Brigadier General who had oversight over Abu Ghirab.

Do any of you recall the mealy-mouthed excuses she gave for not knowing what was going on? At OCS, the Military Academies, boot camp, and on ships of the line, ground units, etc., the only legitimate answer that should have been given by this "equal opportunity" Brigadier General was "NO EXCUSE, SIR!" Then you take your licks, and move on. She is now some sort of news analyst/consultant for one of our television "hack" outfits. Geez.

A retired Navy Officer

2:33 PM  
Blogger Beer, Bicycles and the VRWC said...

I took the same oath. I disagree with the assessment that these things are torture. That said, torture will be visited upon our servicemen regardless, as they were in Korea, Vietnam and as they are against Islamofacists. That is not condoning torture on our part, but the argument "if we don't they won't" is just as patently untrue as "If we disarm, so will they".

3:02 PM  
Blogger Adeodatus49 said...

I never said or even implied that "if we don't they won't." But we have lost the moral high ground when we condemn torture on the part of others.

9:36 PM  
Blogger Greta said...

You ought to go to Catholic and Enjoying it blog of Mark shea to hear the anger and whining over the bad bush and cheney people crying out for punishment. Of course if you post support, you will get attacked and banned from blogging at his site. He uses the Catholic teaching position for his anti torture rhetoric.

11:21 PM  
Blogger Beer, Bicycles and the VRWC said...

49: You may not have said it, but you inferred it.

Define torture. I don't believe these interrogation measures rise to that level.

6:39 AM  
Blogger Kevin Whiteman said...

I understand what you're saying, and I sometimes don't like to say "but we train our own troops to endure waterboarding"... but we do.

It's not a far stretch to use your rationale to push it just a bit further and declare SEER School as "torture", or SEAL Hell Week as "torture" or Marine Corps Boot Camp as "torture".

There were training evolutions I was involved in that the Obama Administration would investigate (and possibly prosecute for) torture. And I wasn't even an Infantryman... I was an Engineer. The Grunts trained a damn sight harder than I did!


I don't waste my time with guys like Shea.

6:39 AM  
Blogger Adeodatus49 said...

49: You may not have said it, but you inferred it.

Define torture. I don't believe these interrogation measures rise to that level.
John McCain believes that water boarding is torture and also has stated that our practices could encourage the practices of other states would would no longer fear the consequences of these actions.

So it would seem that John McCain inferred it too! BTW, a writer does not infer things. He or she implies them. A reader infers from a writer's text, statements, etc. I made no such implication.

The U.S. gov't during the Reagan administration signed an international agreement outlawing torture. And don't forget that water boarding isn't even the worse of it. Remember my comment about our gov't shipping some of these miscreants to countries such as Egypt? Egypt treats its political prisoners--most of whom I have not use for anyway--abominably. We are complicit in Egypt's treatment of prisoners when we ship our prisoners to them for interrogation.

I am a graduate of SERE school, if you can call it a graduation, just before shipping overseas to Vietnam. Giving our military personnel the knowledge and perhaps the ability to resist enemy coercion and even torture doesn't mean that we should go that route ourselves.

Regarding SEAL "Hell Week," those candidates can walk away from it any time they want to.

I agree with your comments about Mark Shea. He is one of the two reasons I dropped my subscription to the National Catholic Register that at least (thankfully) is orthodox in the faith as opposed to that modernist, heterodox rag, National Catholic Reporter. I lost all respect for him over a Moslem issue and the way he treated letter writers who opposed his position. He writes as if he were the Magisterium itself. Being a layman, he has no ecclesiastical authority over other Catholics not does any of his opinions, even if orthodox in the faith, have any authority in the Church. No matter. Regarding Mark Shea, anathema sit! LOL

11:48 AM  
Blogger Beer, Bicycles and the VRWC said...

Thanks for the grammar lesson. Your intellectual superiority surpasses you moral superiority.

1:47 PM  
Blogger Kevin Whiteman said...

It's irrelevant if those attending SEAL training can simply walk away. Just like Marine Boot Camp, the training is rigorous to the point where some very well could define it as torturous.

And as far as SERE School is concerned, I've spoken with (and I'm sure you have as well) with former POWs who were pretty damn glad they went through said training prior to shipping out to the SEA.

Anyhow, I don't think we're going to change either of us (or Deekman's) minds.

Let's just leave this at "we agree to disagree", ok guys?

1:48 PM  
Blogger Adeodatus49 said...


3:55 PM  

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