Wednesday, September 09, 2009

THE FRUSTRATIONS OF ARGUING WITH A LIBERAL


Reading through the comments on Caveman's "Update on the Wilmington Latin Mass" post reminded me of just how annoying arguing with a liberal is. It appears that some of the St. Mary's parishioners are upset with Caveman's reporting on some of the suspicious mishaps at the August 30th TLM and are letting him know about it with the usual vitriol one would expect from a liberal.

It is well known among people who care that the pastor of St. Mary's parish in Wilmington hates pre-Conciliar Catholicism. It is also well known among people that care that the pastor of St. Mary's parish in Wilmington sees Vatican II as a rupture and a "new springtime." It is well known that among other things, the pastor at St. Mary's hates that form of the Catholic Mass which was the "ordinary form" of the Latin Rite from AT LEAST the 6th century up through the mid part of the 20th century. And it is well known that his hatred for the Mass extends to those who have an affinity for it. In fact, he sees such evil in "pre-Conciliar" Catholicism that he apparently views those who have an affinity for it as fascists.

Knowing all of the above, Caveman took the liberty to post about several observations he made at the August 30th liturgy. Among other things, comments were made on the issue with the thermostat being rigged so that it would not go below 84 degrees. The issue with the sound system. And the issue with the apparent lack of fans in the choir loft. And then the questions were posed on whether all of these issues, among others not commented on, were a result of the effort of the same pastor at St. Mary's parish.

Now I for one see no problem with Caveman's report, analysis, or questions. And I certainly do not see how anyone can in good faith characterize his report as calumny as one of St. Mary's parishioners chastised him. For instance, the most applicable definition for calumny provided by Merriam Webster's online dictionary is as follows: "the act of uttering false charges or misrepresentations maliciously calculated to harm another's reputation." None of the charges made were false and none of them were made with malicious intent to harm another's reputation.

It is a fact that the sound system was absolutely terrible and that this was not the norm. It is a fact that the thermostat was set above 80 degrees and that someone had tampered with it in such a way as to prevent the setting from going below 84 degrees. It is a fact that the Church was sweltering throughout the liturgy, that someone fainted, and that another person threw up. It is a fact that certain persons informed the choir that fans were missing in the choir loft. Taking all of these facts together and considering them in light of the unadulterated contempt the St. Mary's pastor has for what was occurring that evening it is more than reasonable for Caveman to take up his keyboard and to go on the offensive for God and country. He is a marine after all and one of the reasons I at one time was working to enter the U.S. Marine Corps is because I understood that to be a U.S. Marine meant that you defend your own. And if anything, Caveman can be blamed with nothing more than defending his own. So semper fi brother!!!

And so I would just like to thank Caveman for always putting up the good fight and for not being scared to go out on a limb to protect what is sacred. There are few things in this world more frustrating than attempting to argue points of logic and common sense with a liberal. As was the case with the comments to the post I referenced above, liberals have a tendency to attack their enemy by accusing their enemy of behavior that they themselves are engaging in at the very moment they are chastising their enemy for supposedly doing the very same thing. Hence, accuse your enemy of being unCharitable while you yourself are being unCharitable. Liberals will also then begin to use language to attack their enemy which they themselves would never in a million years use in any other conversation, such as the idea that Lucifer actually exists or that mortal sin exists outside of just having an affinity for traditional Catholicism. These tactics are tried and true and they are very effective in knocking a person off their game. They put you on the defensive. Hence the point of my heading, the frustrations of arguing with a liberal. Be it politics or religion, you will never get to the crux of the matter before the conversation degenerates into a bunch of circular argumentation. Meanwhile, the million dollar question goes unanswered, who in fact did put the governor in place at St. Mary's parish on August 30th so that the thermostat could be set no lower than 84 degrees? I think if you find the answer to that question, you just might find out whether there was some "malicious" intent behind the sub-par sound system and the missing fans.

God Bless You Caveman and glad to know you are still among us.

11 Comments:

Blogger TCN said...

If he wasn't sneaky and nasty, he wouldn't be the devil, now would he?

Liberals are unprepared for battle. They would never call upon St. Michael to help them, and they are the ones who most need it.

I guess that's the Fatima prayer's point, ain't it?

11:01 PM  
Blogger Fr LWG said...

As libs spew their vitriol, I just smile at them. That disarms them completely!

11:39 PM  
Blogger JLS said...

What kind of a piece of living s*** would secretly foul up the facilities which were to be used for a Holy Mass? What an affront to God! I'd call it sacrilege on the spiritual level, and on the human level it indicates someone impersonating drivel. Now the only excuse I'd accept would be that whoever it was is currently a member of a college fraternity (even though Catholics are not allowed in them) and is addicted to Michael Jackson videos.

12:30 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Thank you, Confiteor. I honestly appriciate this posting of yours. It did my heart good to read it.

Again, Thanks.

4:30 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6:48 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Confiteor sez - "And I certainly do not see how anyone can in good faith characterize his report as calumny as one of St. Mary's parishioners chastised him."

In my regrettable exchange with Heather, unfortunantly she brought up calumny. I can't read her mind, but if she so happens to be reading this, the individual in question that stated that the fans were missing wasn't some "Raleigh rad-trad", nor was the individual one of the many Traditionalists from with Wilm area who make the 200+ mile round trip trek almost every Sunday to "that parish in Dunn".

I'll go out on a limb here and say that I think that Heather just migh be a little shocked as to just how many St. Mary's parishioners are FED-UP with the crap going on at that parish. That's right... it was a long-standing parishioner at St. Mary's. And there were PLENTY of them there that night who were furious at all the ... "suspicious", shall we say?... coincidences that had taken place that night. That's right, St Mary's parishioners!

Anyhow, I haven't heard if Heather has accepted my apology, but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and just assume she hasn't read it yet.

I would think she deserves at least that.

6:49 AM  
Blogger Heather said...

It wasn't me, Caveman!!

8:36 AM  
Blogger Adeodatus49 said...

Re: the suspicious coincidences

If true, this would be a prime example of a mean spirited disposition and malicious childishness on the part of the perpetrator.

Re: V-II as a rupture and a new springtime

I do not think the Council Fathers intended this, but IMHO others with an agenda intend this. IOW, they want to change the religion of the CC. Sad, tragic, and evil.

9:54 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Heather,
No problemo, amiga! Different Heather!

12:41 PM  
Blogger C said...

My faith and my education has taught me to be charitable to people we disagree with, to view their motives as well-intentioned, and to stick to crititicizing principles rather than personality. Unfortunatly, there gets to a point where one can no longer make excuses for an adversary because the proverbial scales have tipped so far to one side. Furthermore, when there is a persistent pattern of behavior from an individual, over time, in different circumstances, one can begin to form a pretty clear judgement. It saddens me to say that the current pastor of St. Mary's has proven throughout the years that he is incredibly uncharitable and heretical. What proves this? First, conversations that I have had with him, and conversations that many people throughout this deanery have had with him. Secondly, the only time he mentioned the TLM in the bulletin, he was very hostile towards it and made incorrect and unhistorical comments about it. Additionally, he did not post on the website of St. Mary's or on the paper bulletin that the mass was going to be held. All of the other parishes in the Deanery were kind enough to mention it, the Diocese of Raleigh had it on the front page, and Wilmington Catholic Radio ran ads about the mass. And then this mess with the A/C. Whether the AC was sabotoged or neglected, I have no idea. But considering the pastor's views on the TLM, it seems awfully suspect. Again, I'm not whining about my own personal discomfort. I can deal with it. Many of our readers here who have been in the armed forces have dealt with far worse, and we are all prepared to offer up our suffering to God in reparation for our manifold sins. But no one of advanced age should have to become ill during the mass because of this. Our beloved priests and deacons should not have to melt because of this. Could not the pastor of St. Mary's have offered an apology at least for causing this discomfort to the parishoners, the choir, the priests, and His Excellency's representative towards the mass? So, while I am hesitant to criticize any priest, I feel as if I have made a logical arguement as to why it is justified to call this priest out on his lack of charity and his false teachings. I tell you truthfully, the rank and file at St. Mary's, whether they attended the TLM or not, are quite tired of his antics, and I have it on good authority the Diocese isn't happy about it either.

3:03 PM  
Blogger Confiteor said...

C -

If your priest is a drunk, do not criticize for he is your priest.

If your priest is a womanizer, do not criticize for he is your priest.

If your priest is attached to wordly things, do not criticize, it is not your place and he is your priest.

If your priest has a temper, do not criticize, it is not your place and he is your priest.

If your priest is simply unCharitable from time to time, do not criticize, he is your priest.

If your priest is _______________ (fill in whatever common human failing you can think of), do not criticize, it is not your place and he is your priest.


HOWEVER, IF YOUR PRIEST IS A HERETIC, AN APOSTATE, AND A DESTROYER OF SOULS, THEN NOT ONLY RENOUNCE HIM BUT RUN FOR THE HILLS AND TAKE YOUR FAMILY WITH YOU FOR YOUR SOUL AND THE SOULS OF YOUR CHRISTIAN NEIGHBORS ARE AT STAKE.

We as laypersons have an obligation to support our priests and recognize that even in the most sinful of priests Christ is present in a most special and unique manner. St. Francis understood this and gave us a good example to follow. However, even though St. Francis might kiss the feet of a drunk friar, St. Francis would never kiss the feet of an Albigensian. So while I share your reticence about criticizing a priest in general, I am of the opinion that when the faith is being destroyed by a cleric, then the situation has changed and you have an obligation to speak up and warn the faithful to BEWARE OF THE WOLF!! No priest has the right to deprive you of what is sacred, to lie to you about the faith, and to do everything in his power to make it harder for you to get to Heaven. Priest or no priest, any person who would do such a thing is in need of some criticism.

Anyway, just my two cents. Thanks for providing the info.

7:57 AM  

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