"What We Have Lost"
The classic video in it's entirety
For those who've seen it in the past, a welcome old friend.
For those who are unfamiliar with it, a hidden gem.
For those who hate the Traditional Latin Mass (and everything else that's orthodox Catholicism), a despised truth.
The classic video in it's entirety
For those who've seen it in the past, a welcome old friend.
For those who are unfamiliar with it, a hidden gem.
For those who hate the Traditional Latin Mass (and everything else that's orthodox Catholicism), a despised truth.
posted by Kevin Whiteman at
12:21 AM
7 Comments:
Two things with which I disagree.
1. Rite of Confirmation--the N.O. rite came almost directly from the Byzantine Rite so it is not deficient theologically. I disagree with Paul VI in revising the venerable Roman Rite in the way he did. All he would have to do is add "The Seal of the Holy Ghost" just before the invocation of the Holy Trinity into the original Roman Rite if he wanted to unite it in some way to the Eastern Church's practice. This would have been an example of "good" ecumenism had he done so. In fact the Western Rite liturgy of the Antiochan Orthodox Church has done this to its version of the Western rite Confirmation rite. The reason for doing this ecumenically (with respect to relations with the Eastern Churches) is that the Orthodox place great emphasis on the actions of the Holy Spirit in bringing alive the Holy Eucharist and each of the sacraments which they call the Holy Mysteries.
2. The addition of the "For Thine is the Kingdom, Power, and Glory . . . " to the Lord's Prayer is not a Protestant innovation. This is essentially the way the Orthodox pray the Lords Prayer in their Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy (i.e., their mass) with some minor changes in the ending the the prayer. That said, I do recognize in too many Catholic Churches this may be implemented with a Protestant frame of mine.
I agree completely with the tenor of what is presented in this wonderful video. Also, I have a good book recommendation that discusses much or perhaps most of what is in this video:
Michael Davies, "Cramner's Ungodly Order."
What was done to the Catholic mass happened in the past in Merry 'Ole England during Cramner's protestantization of Catholic England. What is so irritating to me about this is that Cramner was an Archbishop. Before he agreed to be consecrated a bishop, Thomas Cramner had to take an oath to defend the Holy Faith. Of course we know how well he lived his voluntarily give oath.
You can read how Cramner abandoned the Holy Faith in Belloc's biography of the great apostate entitled simply "Cramner."
I honestly wish I had your ability to look upon things with your objectivity. But then again, I kill flies with sledgehammers.
I enjoy this video, it brings back memories of when I discovered our glorious tradition... but I did always think this video had serious sede undertones.
Cavey said:
I honestly wish I had your ability to look upon things with your objectivity. But then again, I kill flies with sledgehammers.
Responsio: I get just as pissed off about the same things in the Church and our Liturgy as you do, only I don't have your energy anymore. I am 60 and a couple of years ahead of you aiming in the direction of the grave. I am really tired of the never-ending controversies originated by the liberals in the CC. :-))
I lived a Rip Van Winkle sort of existence vis-a-vis the Modern mass for quite some time. I never liked the new mass, but for about 20 years since its implementation (1969-1989), I went about my mass attendance in a daze. I missed the old mass, but thought erroneously that I was just being nostalgic. For years I attended a Spanish language N.O.M. because the language translation seemed better than that awful ICEL stuff and the music was better. Spanish Church music actually is pretty good and certainly is much higher in quality than that Haugen-Hass-Schutte drivel that infects our "singing experience" in the N.O.M. About 1990 I noticed that the parishes started to institute extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion, Communion in the hand, and altar girls. At this point (in conjunction with the rise of internet) I started my own qwest to research Catholic liturgical history. I read everything I could get my hands on, including the works of Fr. Adrian Fortescue, Nicholas Gihr, Dom Fernand Cabrol,other liturgical writers, and the works of Michael Davies among many other authors. I also got into all things Byzantine including their marvelous Divine Liturgy and Hours (the Divine Office), mostly through reading Orthodox books, because the Eastern Catholic writings are pretty scarce in comparison to the Orthodox. This took me about 10 years to do, the majority of my readings being in the 1995-2000 period before I ran out of steam intellectually. The good thing about all this work, however, was that it got me back to the Latin Mass, Deo Gratias. I also discovered that the post-V2 liturgists were lying when they claimed that the N.O.M. is the result of a natural, organic, development of the Catholic liturgy. Rather, it is a manufactured camel pretending to be a natural-born horse. Yes, a committee of "experts" known as the Consilium designed this monstrosity.
So I am not an expert in this area, but I have tried to learn as much as I can if only to protect myself from the Modernism and Deconstructionism that is so prevalent in our Church and in our Western society.
The Book Burner said:
I enjoy this video, it brings back memories of when I discovered our glorious tradition... but I did always think this video had serious sede undertones.
Responsio: I also recall that the video referred to a Fr. Morrison in reference to a list of Latin Masses held through out the country. I believe is the Fr. Morrison of the Traditio website, a notoriously sedevacantist site. Also, the video said that Msgr (later Apb.) Bugnini was a confirmed Mason. IIRC, this has never been demonstrated conclusively. Now I am not saying it isn't true, but I do not need to resort to sinister motives on Msgr Bugnini's and others' parts to demonstrate what I believe is/was the folly of the Consilium in revising the liturgy the way that it did so, and in the failure of Pope Paul VI to keep such revisions under his personal control.
I also believe that the influence of the Protestant observers to the Consilium's activities is overstated.
I have owned a copy of this for some time now. Although it was made in 1999 (during the disaster of JPII "the Great") it was years before the start of the returning to Tradition under BXVI.
I love sending this video to my many Novus Ordo friends. They often comment that they had never had to think about such things before seeing it.
I do agree that not everything in the video is something that I would hold to. But this Marine would hold to 99% of it.
Semper Fi & God Bless the SSPX!
This ia a good video, the errors have already been mentioned, but the errors aren't the point, The lack of Theocentric worship is, and that's something no matter how you dress the NO can't be done.
I will confess that as I started to see some of the names/persons commentating during this video... my spidey senses began to tingle, i.e. Sedevacantist Alert - I am, after all, a heresy hunter, so I can't help it.
But still, I agree with Joe of St. Therese that, despite its errors, the declination in "Theocentric worship" is the main theme of the documentary.
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