Tuesday, June 23, 2009

Thanks, Spirit Of Vatican II
Thanks for nothing

From CatholicCulture.org; (Emphasis mine) Evangelicals now rival Catholic presence in Guatemala
June 23, 2009

Evangelical groups are making enormous inroads in Guatemala, recruiting thousands of new members from the Catholic community, reports Aid to the Church in Need. The group estimates that nearly half of the population of the country-- once staunchly Catholic-- is now Evangelical.
Must be that "fresh breeze" I've been hearing so much about.

It's OK to puke now.

11 Comments:

Blogger Subvet said...

Like it or not, Vatican II was convened by a Pope acting ex cathedra. There have been many abuses due to the changes of it, those changes are sanctioned by Rome and therefore acceptable in the eyes of God.

Like it or not the Novus Ordo is also deemed by Rome to be on a par with the TLM. Your dislike of it is your problem and yours alone to deal with.

As for myself, I was born in 1952 and can remember how things were Pre VatII. As with others my age the memory is probably imperfect, time gives it's own spin to things.

But I do prefer the Novus Ordo and the whys are immaterial. My Sunday Mass attendance is the high point of the week, a time when I'm closest to the Creator.

Voicing your dislike is one thing Cavey, but your almost constant attack on the way I worship is really old.

It's your blog, your rules. Have a ball. My own self respect dictates I spend my time elsewhere, someplace where my beliefs aren't routinely insulted.

So take my blog from your links, I've already done the same to yours on my own site.

One final thought, with persecution of the Church ramping up you can bet those in charge of it aren't looking to see who follows what form of the Mass. They'll be checking who follows Rome. The continuing attacks by those of your mind against their fellow faithful Catholics aren't something that works in the Church's favor, but it does increase that smell of Satan you often cite.

7:19 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

I knew that someone would have a knee-jerk reaction and be unable to differentiate between the actual Council itself, and "The Spirit" of such that has led to bastardization and the utter turning on it's head of Catholicism. I'm just suprised it was you.

Anyhow, if you so desire to look upon my pointing out that the Mass of Paul VI kicks the door wide open for abuse, scandal and error, well... you're right. This is my blog and I'll post anything I want.

And if you consider my "attacks" on the Novus Ordo as really old, than you've done the right thing by voting with your feet. I guess some people are happy with a Chevette.

Sadly, you've shown that the Smoke of Satan (that I often cite) not only deafens, it also blinds. I hope you have a hand-holdin' good time at your next worship service.

BTW, you asked I remove any and all links to your blog on mine -- done. And happily.

8:19 PM  
Blogger Joe of St. Thérèse said...

Destruction, what happens when you let liberals take a hold of anything.

12:28 AM  
Blogger Alexander said...

What happened after the council was an attempt to water down Catholicism and make it more acceptable to protestants. The hope was that in doing this the protestants would return. Instead it has backfired. Since Catholicism can look closer to Protestantism now, the protestants have an easier time stealing souls.

12:38 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

'Subvet' seems not to know what 'ex cathedra' means. I also find it funny that so many 'Catholics' constantly refer to 'the Vatican' or 'Rome', instead of 'the Pope'. It should be clear that by this they mean the bureaucracy itself, which runs things day to day, rather than the Vicar of Christ. It is an attempt to undermine his authority.

Equally laughable is the disdain for the TLM and the comment "yours and yours alone", given the death of Catholic culture throughout the world, except where the TLM is offered. I guess the Holy Father issued that Motu Proprio for this one blogger.

I got a good chuckle out of the comment by 'subvet' that he couldn't afford to spend time on this blog...while taking the time to post an adolescent comment.

One final thought; very few people are 'checking' who follows 'Rome'. Those of us here in the trenches raising families are worried about doctrinal fidelity and sanctity, not adherence to the party line of modernists and political opportunists masquerading as clerics.

1:01 AM  
Blogger Alexander said...

Subvet wrote:

Like it or not, Vatican II was convened by a Pope acting ex cathedra. There have been many abuses due to the changes of it, those changes are sanctioned by Rome and therefore acceptable in the eyes of God.

Like it or not the Novus Ordo is also deemed by Rome to be on a par with the TLM. Your dislike of it is your problem and yours alone to deal with.


On par is a loose statement. Rome’s non-infallible preferences or claims of total equality ignore the obvious signs of inferiority within the Novus Ordo. “But the Pope can’t be wrong.” Really? Why on earth would an act of discipline be infallible? How can Pius XII condemn antiquarianism – returning to things of the past and suddenly Paul VI gives the OK for many forms and uses of ancient times that were gotten rid of for good reason (like communion in the hand and simple altars that look like tables)?


If you mean that they are equally the same sacrifice of Calvary then we would agree. If you mean that they both offer the same intrinsic graces then we would agree. But if you mean they offer the same extrinsic graces and convey the Catholic faith equally then you are wrong.

A side by side comparison reveals that the Novus Ordo contains watered down prayers. This was the explicit intention of Fr. Bugnini, the chief architect of the New Mass; he wanted to “strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is, for the Protestants.” This obviously means concepts like Sacrifice, Transubstation, purgatory, etc.

He by no means succeeded fully but he and his commission succeed in making Catholic concepts less apparent. A simple side by side comparison reveals this.

There is further problem with symbolism and ritual in the NO which it has also watered down or made optional. This, as well as the inferior prayers, can strike at a multitude of things. One being the sense of the Sacred. Suddenly we have vernacular liturgies with reduced symbolism and watered down prayers – they do not transport one out the worldly domain as well as other properly developed liturgies such as the TLM. The NO has the ability to become so banal that it appears to be a mere prayer service with no Real Sacrifice (on top of watering down prayers that are inferior in communicating Catholic doctrine and concepts).

Ryan Grant writes:

“All of the rites, symbolism and ritual present in the ancient liturgy have been suppressed. For example the numerous signs of the Crosses, all with theological meaning, were reduced to 3. All the rites governing the use of incense were suppressed. Ritual symbolism such as the altar boy moving the missal from the epistle side to the gospel side which symbolizes the old law passing from the Jews to the gentiles was removed, as well as the actions of the priest, outstretching his hands as Christ on the cross, or how he bows down at the confiteor to symbolize Christ weighed down by the world's sin. These things were all completely excised from the Novus Ordo.




As for myself, I was born in 1952 and can remember how things were Pre VatII. As with others my age the memory is probably imperfect, time gives it's own spin to things.

No one argues perfection. We argue that one of the great Catholic defenses has been weakened. Or rather the TLM was a better defense against abuse and error compared to the NO; it is better at comminuting Catholic doctrine, concepts and the sense of the Sacred. Not that it is the most perfect entity in doing all of this nor that the NO is the sole cause of the current crisis of faith.

I have actually been wondering what on earth happened. It must of began in the 1930s at the latest and cultivated until then. Perhaps a pseudo-Modernism emerged and crept in quietly as it poisoned the minds of many lay people, priests, theologians and even prelates. Who knows.

1:19 AM  
Blogger Dymphna said...

I once heard a priest tell a story about another priest friend of his who was in Guatamala. This missionary priest was upset becasue one of his parishioners quit and went to an evangelical church. He questioned the man and was told, "Yes, Fr. you've given us clinics, and schools but at X church they talk about Jesus."
Now, that parishioner may have been full of crap but that story stuck with me. What has gone so wrong in Latin America that people actually prefer the Holy Roller stuff?

9:49 AM  
Blogger Enbrethiliel said...

+JMJ+

It's your week for straw men in the comments box, aye, Cavey? =S

1:35 PM  
Blogger Arkanabar T'verrick Ilarsadin said...

The 1930s saw the rise of another, and distinctly anti-Catholic, current in society that is now inundating the world.

That would be the American Birth Control League, now known as Planned Parenthood Foundation of America. Worse, Christians everywhere were betrayed in 1930 by the Lambeth Conference, which was the first to ever give any sort of dispensation to use contraception.

1:55 PM  
Blogger wildcat_conservative said...

More protestant-izing of the church (IMHO): http://www.christianpost.com/article/20090624/relating-climate-change-to-poverty-vital-says-head-of-catholic-relief-network/index.html

Green IS the new religion, don't cha know....

2:36 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Enbrethiliel,
This just ain't my week!!

4:23 PM  

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