Time to Evacuate
Mahonyland's going up in smoke
I'm just going to post this... no comments, no emphases, just a direct borrow from Fr Z's post. I think it speaks for itself, really.
From a webchat on Friday, Feb. 27, 2009:
Mahonyland's going up in smoke
I'm just going to post this... no comments, no emphases, just a direct borrow from Fr Z's post. I think it speaks for itself, really.
From a webchat on Friday, Feb. 27, 2009:
Ann Scolari: What are your thoughts on the Trindentine mass?
CardinalMahony: Ann: The Tridentine Mass was meant for those who could not make the transition from Latin to English [or other languages] after the Council. But there is no participation by the people, and I don’t believe that instills the spirit of Christ among us.
posted by Cookie at
9:05 AM
9 Comments:
I can not begin to express the insult that I feel by this comment that His Eminence made. Some people are going to say that I take this much too hard, LOL, let me explain why this is an insult for ALL Catholics not just those who go to the EF and Eastern Rites.
1. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is Calvary made ananmesis and of course as everyone knows, the four means of the Mass are Adoration, Thanksgiving, Pardon and Intersession. The very action that we're participating in is Calvary being made anamnesis. Now in the OF, there are more responses by the laity. I often feel that the responses are forced, and not really I guess you can say authentic responses in terms of Liturgy. In otherwords, forced external participation. To say that no one participates is a complete error. Participation is not just an external action, then Cardinal Ratzinger said in his book Spirit of the Liturgy Ch. 3
"But what does this active participation come down to? What does it mean that we have to do? Unfortunately, the word was very quickly misunderstood to mean something external, entailing a need for general activity, as if as many people as possible, as often as possible, should be visibly engaged in action. However, the word "part-icipation" refers to a principal action in which everyone has a "part:. And so if we want to discover the kind of doing that active participation involves, we need, first of all to determine what this central actio is in which all the members of the community are supposed to participate....The real "action" in the liturgy in which we are all supposed to participate is the action of God himself...But how can we part-cipate, have a part in this action? ...If the various external actions (as a matter of fact, there are not very many of them, though they are being artificially multiplied) become the essential in the liturgy, if the liturgy degenerates into general activity, then we have radically misunderstood the "theo-drama" of the liturgy and lapsed almost into parody."
As someone who has been attending the TLM since 2007, my reflections have been that the external particpation flows more in the TLM than the OF. Let me explain what I mean. In the OF you reply to EVERYTHING...(Amen, et cum spiritu tuo, kyrie, gloria, deo gratias (x 2 on Sunday), responsorial psalm, Laus tibi Christe, Te rogamus audi nos, Suscipiat..., preface dialouge and on and on...) The reason why I say the external participation flows more in the EF is percisely because it's not forced, you're allowed to meditate, contemplate upon mystery, and then you hear Dominus Vobiscum, which means your prayers, your contemplation are vital to the Mass. Your presence there is participation in the central actio, the offering of the Mass. The 1st method of participation is internal, then external. not the other way around.
Since when did a Mass "not instil the Spirit of Christ in us"? Last time I checked, the Eucharist was the source and summit of our Faith. I often times feel there's a forced sense of community at many parishes. "Go greet your neighbor" or the prolonged sign of peace. I feel that this is manufactured, not authentic. Community, comes from of course that dead language known as Latin, communio- co-with unitas-self explainable. In otherwords, community is united for the One Purpose, which is to Adore God in the Eucharist and assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It may or may not be expressed through hand shakes, hugs and all of that horizontal feelings and actions. These things aren't necessary to form community. One of the great things about my parish, is that when I first started going there, people let me adore God at Mass first. After Mass one person came to me and welcomed me. That was much appreciated and a great relief to not to be a forced extrovert as it is in many other places.
As for me not being able to adjust to English, I was born in 85, a full 20 years after the council finished, so actually, I like Latin because it's our heritage, it connects me with the Saints, and everyone previous. I long for the encounter with mystery, and Latin assists much better than English for that purpose. And also no where in the Vatican II documents did it say Mass must be entirely in the vernacular. Also, to say that is a reverse on history. Latin came before English, not the other way around.
We seriously need to pray for Cardinal Mahony...so much for him being a new disciple. I'm trying to pray him out the diocese, anyone want to help?
Who really cares what Cardinal Mahoney believes? It ain't what Holy Mother Church proposes for our belief, so it has no bearing on our belief. He will retire shortly, and hopefully the Holy Father will replace him with a Catholic. Until then, it's just pissin' in the wind.
Okay, I typically attend a norvus ordo Mass, because we are heavily involved in our parish, but when we don't have committments at our regular parish we go to the Trindentine Mass that's offered at another parish.
It's funny, because when I'm at the Trindentine Mass I - and alot of other people - have Missals that we're following cloesly in order to pay attention to what's happening in the Mass. I assumed that there was a MISSAL for the Trindentine Mass exactly for that purpose. Silly me.
It is moving and beautiful and I always enjoy attending Mass there.
Cardinal Mahoney does need our prayers, but my gut feeling is he's annoyed because you can't have "liturgical dancers" at the Trindentine Mass and - in a devestating blow to his ego - the center of the Mass is Christ, rather than the presider.
Bet 2 to 1 that if that were read to the pope in front of him (Mahony) he wouldn't like it. They're all brave when they're on their own turf. Where are the people to go up against the likes of his kind. People must band together and face them straight on! And I mean FACE TO FACE!
Did that successor of Judas Iscariot not read the Pope's motu proprio regarding the classical Latin Mass, aka the Extraordinatory Form? Of course he did. He just chooses to misrepresent it because he doesn't like it. For example, anyone even halfwat trying will participate more in the EF than at the plain ol' Ordinary Form.
TCN asks who cares what phoney Mahoney thinks. We all should. He is denying ten of thousands of Catholics in the Los Angeles diocese to see, hear, and feel the traditional Mass that belongs to them.
I have been attending TLM almost exclusively for the past 6 months. This is the mass of my youth and young adult years. On the few occasions that I had to attend the Novus Ordo Missae, it was a very painful experience for me. I am not challenging its validity, but give me a break! Catholic? Hardly.
I would add to the 4 aspects of the Holy Mass also the purpose of making reparation for those who do not observe the 4 means of Holy Mass.
I expect to hear the kinds of ideas expressed by His Eminence from my former dissident Catholic friends, not a Prince of Holy Church. It's sad and horrifying.
A few years back, Mahoney took on Mother Angelica. Since that time he has had to sign off on the largest homosexual child abuse scandal settlement and has had real problems attracting priests. Mother Angelica has had her convent explode with vocations to the point where she has started her fourth house outside of Alabama. Her network has continued to grow and play a major role in the teaching of the Catholic Faith in full communion with the Catholic Church. I suspect when both arrive at judgement day, Mother will pass thru with flying colors and need to pray to help poor Mahoney along if he is to make it.
That man disgusts me.
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