Thursday, January 04, 2007

Sometimes, Gifts Just Fall From The Sky
This is one of those times

I've received quite a bit of comments concerning the post I just did on the Episcopalian service that looks suspiciously like mirrored image to the Novus Ordo Mass.

There was a commenter who chose to remain anonymous who is the proverbial and actual Spirit of Vatican II incarnate. Specifically;

Anonymous said...
Heaven forbid we should ever feel comfortable around our separated brothers and sisters in Christ. That might lead us toward unity or something. Ick.


Interesting points, indeed. But I just have to wonder what type of comfort level Anonymous is desirous of? What kind of unity is Anon striving towards?

Possibly a watered-down Catholicism? Why adhere to all those silly Sacraments? What say we chuck a few in the name of comfort and unity, 'eh?

Could it be a Catholicism that spits in the face of all the Holy Martyrs who have died at the hands of heretics throughout the centuries? I guess martyrdom doesn't really mean anything as long as we present day are comfortable and in unity with heretics, huh?

What say we null and void that mean ol' dogmatic Council of Trent that actually fought the formal heresy of Protestantism? After all, Trent isn't exactly in keeping with the Spirit of Vatican II, now is it?

I'll go out on a limb and wager that Anonymous and his/her ilk are actually embarrassed about The Council of Trent.

Ick, indeed.

24 Comments:

Blogger rev fr lw gonzales said...

Sounds like another, "let's love one another" aging, tye-dye wearing, birkenstock, liberation theology hippie.

How about looking to Christ's Sacred Blood shed on the cross as the ultimate love fest? "Greater love hath no man but to lay down his life for his friend." Feel comfortable around death? Especially Jesus' death?

Guess not. Buh bye, Libby!

5:51 PM  
Blogger AK Nut said...

If only the Catholic Church of Today would grow a pair of balls the size of the ones it had in the days of Yore...

...but is it wrong to pray for bigger balls?

10:00 PM  
Blogger Paul, just this guy, you know? said...

Once again we see, moving toward Unity is only what Catholics do. We have to be more like them. They never move towards us.

10:49 PM  
Blogger Histor the Wise said...

I never feel comfortable around "seperated brothers."

I get worried that I'll have to, like, use rational arguments instead of accusing him of heresy and opposition to Church Councils.

Histor

12:43 AM  
Blogger Hammerbrecher said...

Its official anonymous is gay! He is definatily sitting at the computer in pink slippers, sipping his chai latte and trying to figure out why the 1960s ever ended. Must be hard for some priests to see all their liberal/gay ideas they spent their life building into parishes and indoctrinating, being overturned like the money tables in the temple!

10:39 AM  
Blogger Anita Moore said...

Before I make my main point, can we make a distinction or two here? I'm only a country lawyer and not a theologian, but while Protestantism in its multitudinous forms is objectively heretical, I have a hard time labeling modern-day cradle Protestants -- as distinguished from Catholic apostates -- as heretics. A born-and-raised Protestant who has never been convinced that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church is, I think, not making the deliberate choice of heresy over truth that characterizes a true heretic. Certainly, such people are on a very different moral footing than, say, Luther or Calvin or Wesley, who would have known better.

That said, note to Anonymous: we are still in the business of making disciples of all the nations. And one of the big ways we do that as Catholics is by presenting others with a clear choice between what they have now and what they could have in the Catholic Church.

That's why it's stupid to dumb down the liturgy. When we provide Protestant visitors with the same yoo-hoo stuff they already get in their own churches, we (a) look as though we're ashamed of our Catholic faith, and (b) make it less obvious to them why they should make the big move across the Tiber.

10:44 AM  
Blogger Dymphna said...

Isn't it interesting that nobody ever says that other religions should change for the sake of "unity". They always want to water down Catholicism.

11:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“What kind of unity is Anon striving towards?” I don’t know about Anon, but I think we strive toward a unity we call “catholic.”

“Catholicity” and “oneness” as marks of the Church have historically been in tension. Both are goods to be promoted as marks of the Church, but neither is an unlimited good. Too much “oneness” can encroach on “catholicity”; too much “catholicity” can render “oneness” to be meaningless. A third mark of the Church, “holiness,” however, is an unlimited good. While at one time some may think the Church too diverse so as to lack sufficient unity or, at another time, think the Church too unified so as to lack sufficient diversity, no one would ever think at any time that the Church is too holy. Holiness, then, as an unlimited good, becomes, I think, a regulator of the other two. If one accepts this proposition, then the Church should be as unified as holiness requires, and as catholic as holiness allows.

Catholicity or universality is the goodness in the Church that allows it to be inclusive of all peoples and cultures. The subject of the Church’s catholicity is human beings; the object of the Church’s unity is ideas. Holiness, I think, requires the Church to avoid forfeiting any catholicity (the inclusion of all human beings) and to defend our unity (the exclusion of unacceptable ideas). The referent for modulating the two marks would be always to seek to maximize holiness.

Humans are endowed with rights, and afflicted by vicious inclinations rooted in our will to power. Those who overly stress unity, the absolutists, would like to impose truth by coercion. They make the error of allowing their feelings about erroneous ideas to shift and become the same as their feelings about those who are in error. They think that just as error has no rights of its own and should be banished from the mind, so humans, when they are in error, have no rights and should be banished from the Church. Holiness, charity and humility toward all humanity, enlightened and unenlightened, prevents us from transferring righteous negative impulses toward untruths to the persons holding those untruths. Charity always prevents us from oppressing others, even with the truth.

On the other hand, the postmodern skeptics sometimes overly stress catholicity. They make relativism, ignorance, and doubt necessary conditions for mutual tolerance in a pluralistic society. They make the error of shifting their right feelings, charity and humility toward the human subject—who must be respected even in error—to the object, bad ideas. The relativists regard untruthful ideas as equivalent to truthful ideas. This “laisser faire” mode of intellectuality robs humankind and human intellect of the very act—adherence to truth—in which both human dignity and our reason for living exist. To love God is the first commandment; we are commanded to continually strain for the Truth. This requires us, in holiness, not to relax into skepticism, but to pursue Him with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. It is the Truth, not ignorance, which makes us truly humble, makes us truly holy.

Pel

3:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your welcome.

But truly, what is your vision of Christian unity in the world today -- I mean world-wide, including parts of the world like Africa and China? Is it really the Council of Trent? Should Christian unity even be strived for?

4:28 PM  
Blogger Angry Orthodox said...

Why stop there Cavey! Why not throw out the previous Councils in Nicea, Constantinople etc. Afterall, St. Nick wasn't acting in the Spirit of Vatican II when he slapped Arius for talking trash about the Lord, saying he wasn't God incarnate, or when those hateful, sexist, homphobic bishops issued that anoying Creed that Churches from the Copts to the Russians to the Armenians to (now some) Romans recite, or when they censored those poor Gnostics, Arians, Monophysites, Donatists, Arminians etc etc

*saracasm off*

No thanks Anonymous. I want to belong to the Apostles' Church, the one Saints Paul, Brigid, Mary of Egypt, Sebastian, Boniface, John Chrysostom and Martin of Tours belonged to. They didn't appease the pop culture of the time and neither will I.

5:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Do you think there is ever room for liturgy other than the Tridentine Mass? It would seem to me from your comments that no Novus Ordo Mass is acceptable.

6:42 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

I get worried that I'll have to, like, use rational arguments instead of accusing him of heresy and opposition to Church Councils.


Hist, Protestantism isn't a heresy any longer? Gee. I thought The Church has declared it as such for.... oh, I don't know.... the past 500 years?

Please correct me (and the Council of Trent) if we're waaaaaay off base here.

5:47 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

A born-and-raised Protestant who has never been convinced that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church is, I think, not making the deliberate choice of heresy over truth that characterizes a true heretic.

Anita, you're absolutely right. Anyone, who through no fault of their own, who has never had the Truths of Christ AND HIS CHURCH cottectly explained/taught to them, most certainly does have the possibility of salvation. The Church has taught that for 2,000 years. (Invinvable Ignorance)

Unfortunantly today, many clerics blow off II and focus instead on the wrong-headed belief (and heretical, as well) of Universal Salvation.

6:00 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Anonymous said...
Your welcome.

But truly, what is your vision of Christian unity in the world today -- I mean world-wide, including parts of the world like Africa and China? Is it really the Council of Trent? Should Christian unity even be strived for?


Anon,
Is my idea of unity some watered-down, use to be Catholic, bastard child? No... it's not.

As far as Africa is concerned, Catholicism is growing by leaps and bounds, even with the corrupt "Spirit of Vatican II" priests from Europe and North America. In fact, the Catholics of Africa are much more orthodox in their Catholicism that their counterparts in The West.

And even the Underground Church in China is surviving, despite all the communist persecutions.

So what was your point about Africa and China?

And as far as Trent is concerned... what a wonderful example of striving for Christian unity. I think when Protestantism was officially declared a heresy did more for "unity" than any soft-headed, "I'm OK, you're OK", huggy-touchy nonsense that is SO pervasive in todays New And Improved Catholic Church.

6:14 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

A Different Anonymous said...
Do you think there is ever room for liturgy other than the Tridentine Mass? It would seem to me from your comments that no Novus Ordo Mass is acceptable.


I've always maintained that the NO most certainly IS a valid Mass. But the reality of it is, the possibility for error and scandal are so great, one could drive a Mac truck through them.

Long story short, water is good for a child, and certainly isn't harmful. But if you want to nourish that child, give 'em milk.

6:24 AM  
Blogger Former Altar Boy said...

Anita,
I agree with Vir that someone raised in heretic sect may suffer from invincible ignorance, but have no doubt, they still belong to a heretic sect. And before someone can count on their invincible ignorance as the road to salvation because they believe the heresy with a "good conscience," remember there is a duty to have a "well formed" conscience. In other words, if the ignorant member of the heretical sect says, "Gee, maybe those Catholics are right about such and such," then he or she has a DUTY to investigate, study, and search for the TRUTH.

1:05 PM  
Blogger Former Altar Boy said...

Anon (6:42pm):

What silliness. There are dozens of approved Masses (rites) within the Roman Catholic Church. In the Eastern Church there's the the Maronite, the Chaldean, the Coptic, just to name three. In the Western Church, there's the Latin (in the post-Vat II world sometimes called the Tridentine), the Domincan, and the New Order (aka Novus Ordo), just to name three.

The Latin Mass has been around, with few changes, for 1500 years. Major parts of the Latin Mass are found in all rites, including those of the Eastern Church. The New Ordo is certainly a valid rite but and can be said in Latin. In fact, there is nothing in the Vat II documents requiring it to be said in the venacular. In fact, the original intent was that all UNchanging parts of the New Order Mass be said in Latin. The fact that the New Order has been hijacked by the modernists, who have inserted every nonsense, novelty, and priests' personal preferences then indoctrinated the congregants into believing this is what Rome wants, is why one cardinal recently said that once every priest is allowed to say the Latin Mass, the New Ordo will gradually disappear.

Anon, I challenge you to attend a traditonal Latin Mass for three straight Sundays then report back here which Mass (Latin or NO) you found more awe-some, inspiring, and left you with a feeling of having actually WORSHIPPED God.

1:27 PM  
Blogger Anita Moore said...

The fact that the New Order has been hijacked by the modernists, who have inserted every nonsense, novelty, and priests' personal preferences then indoctrinated the congregants into believing this is what Rome wants, is why one cardinal recently said that once every priest is allowed to say the Latin Mass, the New Ordo will gradually disappear.

Actually, they've done worse than indoctrinating congregants that this is what Rome wants. They've indoctrinated many congregants into thinking it doesn't matter what Rome wants.

7:32 PM  
Blogger Dad29 said...

so humans, when they are in error, have no rights and should be banished from the Church

Thus spake Anony, commenting on some comments.

Just "banished"? What about the rack, the Iron Maiden? Toasty-Toes Treatments?

9:02 PM  
Blogger Michael Leggett said...

Perhaps, the Modernists wanted, since Woodstock Music Festival, which was in the Town of Bethel, NY(Location of The Farm), was a Mass to be Woodstock II:

I believe that the "Woodstock II" Mass will go away, once the Traditional Mass of The Council Of Trent, returns to full & active usage;

The Tridentine Latin Rite Mass-1962 Missal, will bring back The Faithful to their heritage;

In my Parish in Woodhaven, Queens, NY, I'm finding that Elderly, English-Speaking Catholics, are attending the Spanish-Language Mass, because it most-corresponds to the Latin Mass, which they felt most-prayerful & comfortable with. Imagine their joy, when the Mass of Tradition, is regularly-offered, complete with Gregorian Chant;

I also realize that Catholics, since The 2nd Vatican Council, courtesy of the Modernists, are poorly-catechized & wouldn't know Extreme Unction from Extreme Games;

The Modernists, far from being inclusive, are very-exclusive, for the Unifying Language is not used much & for an English, Irish, or US Citizen Standpoint, one attends a Catholic Mass in Germany & can be made to feel marginalized or excluded altogether from participation in The Sacred Liturgy;

I have witnessed Lutheran & Anglican Liturgies & save for that the 2 Liturgies promote Consubstantiation, & Ours Promotes Transubtantiation, there is really no difference in format. It confused me as a University Student, in the 1970s;

Vox Populi, Vox Dei!

1:46 PM  
Blogger Former Altar Boy said...

Anita.
Good point!

3:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“Just ‘banished’? What about the rack, the Iron Maiden? Toasty-Toes Treatments?”

Hey Dad29, holster that varmint (heretic) shooter! We stopped burnin’ them at the stake a long time ago. Religious freedom is in; heretic killin’ is out.

In Redemptoris Missio, his 1990 encyclical on Christian mission, John Paul made a decisive break with certain aspects of the Christian past and embraced the method of freedom when he wrote that "The Church proposes; she imposes nothing" (emphasis in original). Here was a decisive, historic break with the shadow–side of using the state’s power to hinder heretics.

At the same time, and in the same encyclical, John Paul had taught the orthodox faith of the Church: that many are saved who do not belong to the Church, but that those who are not saved in the Church are nonetheless saved because of Christ.

Pel

9:55 AM  
Blogger Kasia said...

Anon, if you take up Former Altar Boy's challenge, I strongly suggest that you take a missal with you. If you don't want to buy one, you can print it here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/lmass/ord.htm

I attended a Tridentine Mass here in Detroit a few years ago, and while I will certainly admit it was beautiful, I had trouble paying attention because I didn't go prepared. I don't understand much Latin, and because I was raised secular in the post-Vatican II era, all I had experienced were a few Novus Ordo Masses (which seemed quite exotic enough to me at the time), a few years of Episcopal services, and my mother's Unitarian church services before that. So I couldn't follow what was going on, and I felt more like I had gone to a performance than to worship God. If I go again, I will definitely bring a missal.

If you try it, go prepared and with an open mind. Just my $.02. :-)

2:54 PM  
Blogger Former Altar Boy said...

Anon, excellent advice from Kasia. The TLM I attend passes out paper booklets (Missalettes, if you will) with all the unchanging prayers of the Mass, in English & Latin. It was a bad asumption on my part to think that was common practice elsewhere.

BTW, if you find you like the traditional Mass, Angelus and TAN have great missals for sale or you can find several on eBay (just be sure to get the 1962 or earlier version).

10:44 AM  

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