Question - New Translations for Novus Ordo Missae
Does the opposition towards the new translations proposed for the new Mass not corroborate Archbishop Marini's recollection of the goals of the Concilium? That being that the Novus Ordo Missae was construced with changing Catholic doctrine as a primary objective?
Otherwise, why do these liberals fear the new translations so much? Are the new translations too Catholic? Do the opponents fear the new translations because they might be seen as a clarification that the true authority of the Church never intended for the New Mass to be used as a tool to change Catholic doctrine and theology?
The Catholic Church seems to be ever more at a crossroad. This issue with the translation is just one more revealing fact of how fractious the modern Church is. I wonder, do we really live in historic times in this regard? Has there ever been a time in history where so many people were identified as Catholics in name, but in reality the Church was made up of what is in essence two, or maybe three, completely different religions? Is this what St. Dominic faced with the Albigensians or what Athanasius faced with the Arians?
History may tell us that the Church has been through this before and the Church has survived. But in years past, the Church had St. Athanasius, St. Dominic, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis, St. Ignatius, St. Pius V, St. Piux X, et. al. Who are our saints today whom will bring us out of this mess? Pope Benedict maybe?
Anyway, as time passes, I more and more feel like I am part of a minority religion coexisting within an overriding ecclesiastical structure.
Does the opposition towards the new translations proposed for the new Mass not corroborate Archbishop Marini's recollection of the goals of the Concilium? That being that the Novus Ordo Missae was construced with changing Catholic doctrine as a primary objective?
Otherwise, why do these liberals fear the new translations so much? Are the new translations too Catholic? Do the opponents fear the new translations because they might be seen as a clarification that the true authority of the Church never intended for the New Mass to be used as a tool to change Catholic doctrine and theology?
The Catholic Church seems to be ever more at a crossroad. This issue with the translation is just one more revealing fact of how fractious the modern Church is. I wonder, do we really live in historic times in this regard? Has there ever been a time in history where so many people were identified as Catholics in name, but in reality the Church was made up of what is in essence two, or maybe three, completely different religions? Is this what St. Dominic faced with the Albigensians or what Athanasius faced with the Arians?
History may tell us that the Church has been through this before and the Church has survived. But in years past, the Church had St. Athanasius, St. Dominic, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis, St. Ignatius, St. Pius V, St. Piux X, et. al. Who are our saints today whom will bring us out of this mess? Pope Benedict maybe?
Anyway, as time passes, I more and more feel like I am part of a minority religion coexisting within an overriding ecclesiastical structure.
posted by Confiteor at
10:20 PM
13 Comments:
I predict there will be some pain in the pews when the priest reads his bit from the new sacramentary containing the new translations.
I have read bits and pieces of a near final version of the proposed English translation. OK for the most part in readability. Some expressions here and there were mighty strange due to their reasonably literal adherence to the official latin text. But then this is a risk of translations. Source language and receptor languages rarely are 100% congruent for all expressions and meanings.
BTW, Cavey, you are part of a minority religion, the U.S. Marine Corps! LOL
Oops! Sorry Confiteor. I should have checked first that it wasn't Cavey's post. I still stand by my statement regarding Cavey being a member of a minority religion! LOL
And yes, I believe you are a minority in an overriding ecclesiastical structure, the others being 20th/21st Century equivalents to Arians, Dualists,and Iconoclasts. The important question to ask yourself is "Am I orthodox in the faith?" That's the only important question IMHO.
"...Anyway, as time passes, I more and more feel like I am part of a minority religion coexisting within an overriding ecclesiastical structure."
--Sounds like a "creative minority" to me.
Ade, "you are a minority in an overriding ecclesiastical structure, the others being 20th/21st Century equivalents to Arians, Dualists,and Iconoclasts." Something I have been saying about myself & the rest of us who are speaking up for a long time. That fact does give me hope though. Orthodoxy won out then & it will win out again.
Another powerful reason to throw off the chains of the Novus Ordo and return to the 1962 Missal. You will be at peace!
Semper Fi
I am looking forward to the new Translation of the Mass!
And I do think that the opposition to it is coming from modernists who truely want to change the way that Catholics pray and think, to further their own heretical and immoral aims.
But I do not want a return to the 1962 missal. I like the Idea of being able to understand the prayers of the Mass, and being able to participate more conciously in them.
But you know, the 1965 missal, simply the Roman missal translated into english, with ad orientam worship would go over will with me.
I like the Idea of being able to understand the prayers of the Mass, and being able to participate more conciously in them.
That's why God made the right hand side of the right hand side of the Latin-English Missal! ;-)
But all seriousness aside, two things to consider (that's I've posted on a number of times) --
1. The Consecration in a "live and evolving" language is open to scandal and error. Why in the Name of God risk it? Just so we can all feel more comfortable? I may not "feel comfortable" washing my hands after taking a dump. How comfortable would you be if I were to cook for you?
2. The rationale you gave for Mass in the vernacular is pretty much the same reasoning luther gave.
Just something to think about.
But I do not want a return to the 1962 missal. I like the Idea of being able to understand the prayers of the Mass, and being able to participate more conciously in them.
Would you find a vernacular version of the TLM (complete with rigorous rubrics) in accurately translated and sacred English acceptable? I would, although I would always want access to the TLM in Latin only.
As my justification for use of the vernacular, I call your attention to the Orthodox and Oriental Churches who have very traditional liturgies in English in addition to the use of their liturgical languages: e.g., Church Slavonic, Byzantine Greek, Arabic, Aramaic, Coptic, Gez, etc.
The V-II Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy stated authoritatively that Latin must be preserved in the liturgy. I would hope then that the Institution Narrative ALWAYS be spoken/prayed in Latin!
Problems with the 1965 Interim Roman Missal: the priest faced the people and it was not a direct or exact translation and execution of the TLM according to the Roman Missal of 1962. Translations of the biblical readings came from the "boring" New American Bible, 1st edition even before the NAB was published officially (I am not sure of this vis-a-vis publication date). For this reason, I do not care for it at all.
Folks, we are gonna be stuck with the NOM for a good long time. Hopefully the PTB will be able to fix some of the worst practices when they finally "turn the priest around," re-install altar rails, and eject the laity from the sanctuary, build new Churches along more traditional Catholic designs, and sell or destroy the Taj Mahony, among other things.
What is up with all the sloth when it comes to reading. Haven't people heard of the concept of effort?
Reading is much easier than learning to shoot a rifle; I know because I learned to read before I learned to shoot.
The Latin is on one side; the English (or whatever language) is on the facing page ... What is the danged problem? You look at the Latin once in a while instead of daydreaming about the last kids' cartoon show you watched. Then you read the English side. You compare and see what makes sense.
If you really are Catholic and not a pretender, then you will be tapped into the spiritual gifts that St Paul informs us about. You will be able to understand ... Has anyone ever heard of the concept of "faith"?
Ok, now that we have corraled people who make fun of the written language and the act of reading it, we can proceed.
What we need for proceeding is somebody who served as a Drill Instructor, range instructor, schools instructor or some kind of instructor in the Corps.
Second, we need someone additionally who has developed and can renew the fine art of slapping someone else on the knot on the back of the head.
Third, we need all those with reading reluctance to step forward humbly, just like they stepped forward into the barber chair for the first time at boot camp.
And forthly and lastly, we need somebody who can play the Marine Corps Hymn on the Tuba ... to, whatelse, blow the notes into the students' ears at the appropriate moments.
Chairs will not be used for this remedial ... I mean special ops school. At ease will not be heard, parade rest will not be heard ... students will stand at attention ... OK, if anyone has read this far, then they get a get out of trouble pass.
Also needed is someone to implement this campaign.
Amen, and hallelujah! My adopted parish just announced the TLM EVERY SUNDAY at 9:00 a.m. God be praised.
You know, all of this could have been avoided if Vatican II had just allowed the vernacular use of the Tridentine Mass and skipped the Novus Ordo all together. Despite my reservations about the NO and Vatican II, I do think that the vernacular opens up Catholicism to individuals from a non-Western background.
I do think that the vernacular opens up Catholicism to individuals from a non-Western background.
IIRC conversions to Catholicism in the non-Western world with the latin-only mass during pre-VII times were doing pretty well!
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