Sunday, June 08, 2008

NC Catholics Gets It Wrong...

I've posted in the past concerning some of the questionable articles in the local diocesan paper (click here and here) - and this one's no different. Here's a snippet from the Church of You 'N Me;
He Said, She Said
what do they do?
Tom and JoAnne Fogle

Without question, if Mike's boss at work said we are all (as a work group) going to gather at 9:00 to thank the corporation for providing us work, benefits and paychecks, most would not question it. Primarily because most understand we can not accomplish much in the workplace without being part of a team - without being part of the work community. The same is true with "church." We are a community when we worship, we come to give thanks for our blessings and to support each other. Church is as much about relationships with others as is the work community. Once we understand the dynamics of relationship, the more value will be put on attending the formal church.
I thought "church" (formal or otherwise) was all about God, and not each other and our relationships, with or without the various dynamics. Guess not.

I do believe this article perfectly illustrates the difference between Traditional Latin Rite Catholics, and out separated brethren who have an affinity to the Liberal Novus Ordo -- we Trads contemplate the relationship between Christ and us when He's physically present during the Mass. The Liberals contemplate the relationship between themselves and the individual standing next to them at Mass.

Let the vomiting beginnnnnnn...... now.


Blogger Vir Speluncae Orthodoxae said...

I thought the same thing Sarge.

10:31 PM  
Blogger Coffee Catholic said...

This is what KILLS me about the mentallity of the Novus Ordo "Spirit of Vatican II" stuff. Like when they take the tabernacle and stuff it into a side room... The message is clear, "It's all about US! It's all about COMMUNITY!" The hymns alone are enough to get that message across. Like the hideous, "WE are one bread... WE are one body..." WHAT ABOUT GOD?!?!?! Isn't HE the reason we go to Mass?? **Sigh** I am not bread. **Jesus** is the Bread of Life. I am NOT bread. I'm there for GOD, not me or anyone else.

4:00 AM  
Blogger Coffee Catholic said...

P.S. and yet for some reason that mentality makes folk like me "legalistic" and "retrograde" and I'm "stuck in the past" and trying to "drag the Church back into the dark ages..."


4:01 AM  
Blogger Alli said...

Wow, I never knew that the point of going to the SACRIFICE of the Mass was really about making myself feel good! This changes EVERYTHING!!
/rips off chapel veil, puts on a pantsuit, and starts waving my hands while singing Shout To The Lord/

9:09 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Orthodoxae said...

The so-called "Dark Ages" were a great time for the Church. Most of the saints we venerate lived then and the harvested the souls of millions of peasants and battled the worst of heretics, and the only schism was with the non-Chalcedonians. Why wouldn't we want to bring those times back?

9:16 AM  
Blogger deb said...

I read the same article(I am in NC too) and until I read your post I hadn't really thought deeply about those sentences. I am glad that you caught that. All I thought when I read that article is that I am greatful that I have a real man for a husband who gets up early and takes us to Church every weekend.

5:05 PM  
Blogger Joe of St. Thérèse said...

lol, alli, lol, but going to the NO Mass at another Church that wasn't my home Church, I realized this completely...

I think if we can destroy this me mentality in catechesis, we can destroy it for the Church :) (as what I'm trying to do, all prayers ad orientem and making classes more vertical)

12:31 AM  
Blogger ignorant redneck said...

People like that make people like me drink too much--we happy rednecks tend to get more...friendly after a couple of cold ones.

Less impropmtu strangulation.

2:08 PM  
Blogger LarryD said...

If I hear "I the Lord of sea and sky" one more time, it may come down to an understanding judge and sympathetic jury.

8:12 PM  
Blogger Simplex Vir said...

Actually, I will be doing a post about this very same article. I was given this idea by someone much smarter than I. Alas, when I read it the one comment that stuck out was the wife question.

"How can I make him live up to the obligations of his faith?"

First and hopefully I don't offend any women, but, you shouldn't be trying to MAKE him to &#$%!! There in lies the problem.

Men will never feel respected, couragous, and knightly going to a femonized, watered down, me session. That is why you find so many strong men at the Mass in the Extrordinary Form.

I love my wife with all my heart and would give my life over and over for her. The reason why you ask, She would never try to make me do anything. She knows there are better ways to a man's heart than to try and kick his butt!

9:46 PM  
Blogger Jeffrey Phillips said...

Ahh, the arrogance of some people!

It surely is amazing how those who think the Traditional Latin Rite is the be-all-end-all of the Catholic faith. The audacity of those who want to dismiss the concepts of the Early Church Tradition, whereby the community gathered to Worship God, by ignoring the communal aspect of the Liturgy.

Absolutely no where in the article presented does it state that the Liturgy is only about the community, but rather it is a part, mind you, a part of the dynamics of the community.

The general thrust of the article, in my opinion is that even in the back of the mind, there is to be an awareness of the relationship we have with our other worshipers, that we are together, a group of believers who come together to worship God, which is the very definition of community.

Even the staunchest traditionalist can see that the Liturgy is a community action of worship of God. After all, there is more to the presence of Christ in the Liturgy than just His Presence in the Eucharist.

The Trads (your term) seem to forget the presence of Christ in the reading of Scripture, in the person of the Presider (Bishop or Priest), and in the community of believers (Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them), and concentrate on only one facet of the Real Presence of Christ.

To deal with the relationship with others is to deal with the relationship with Christ as a member of the Body (as St Paul states that "We are the Body, and Christ is the Head"). Of course, that has less to do with the Presence in the Eucharist, so it doesn't matter, or does it?

The very last paragraph demonstrates the weakness of the Trad argument for the Church in that they choose to ignore the common ground, and demonize one of the issues that the more complete believer incorporates into the belief system, that the Liberals also do, much more that Trads would like to believe, contemplate the relationship of each person to Christ, AND, how that relationship is changed with the person standing next to them at Mass.

I was going to say as opposed to the Trad view of "God and Me" mentality which says to hell with those others around me, but that would be falling into the same trap, and I don't want to go there. I choose to stay above that argument. I do acknowledge that some Trads acknowledge the community as a part of the Catholic faith Tradition.

1:08 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Ahhh... the death gurgle of the Novus Ordo: "But what about ME? Blah, blah, blah, whaa, whaa, whaa, sniffle, sniffle, sniffle."

Worshipping as a community most certainly is important, but that's where the Roman Protestants have lost focus. You folks place "community" equal to, and in more than a few parishes, above God.

Even some of your own words betray you. Case in point - "Presider". Do you even believe in the Ordained Pristhood? Do you adhere to "In Persona Christi"? Or is the guy up there by the butchers block nothing more than "the president of the assembly"? How very Prottie.

I also was laughing at the following; (..."We are the Body, and Christ is the Head"). Of course, that has less to do with the Presence in the Eucharist, so it doesn't matter, or does it?
Yes, it does matter. That is if one is one of those silly New-Agers that's infected The Church with the heretical belief that when we rcv Holy Communion, WE BECOME Jesus. Yes, I've seen that pathetic circular argument before by the self-worshippers.

I suggest that before you saunter in here and start throwing about your theological narcissism, you best get your priorities in order.

We Catholics worship vertically, not horizontally.

Oh, one last thing... your comment "Even the staunchest traditionalist can see that the Liturgy is a community action of worship of God. After all, there is more to the presence of Christ in the Liturgy than just His Presence in the Eucharist." You're wrong. The TLM can and has been said privatly (the priest alone) for quite a few centuries. I'd like to remind you of the priests and bishops who the Soviets threw into solitary confinment for decades, still celebrated The Latin Mass. And unfortunantly, by it's own rubrics, the Novus Ordo itself is somehow lacking in holiness unless there is laity present. ( How very Prottie... and sad.

And speaking on how your own words betray you; "After all, there is more to the presence of Christ in the Liturgy than just His Presence in the Eucharist. You can't be serious. That's not just sad.... that's heartbreaking that a self-proclaimed Catholic's knowledge of even the bare basics is that weak.

You know Jeff, you really need to face facts.... this brief flirtation with Protestantism that "The Spirit" of Vatican II has spawned, is on it's death bed.

To be perfectly blunt, it's glaringly obvious that it's not Christ physically present in The Eucharist that you worship, but yourself and those around you. I'll pray for your conversion to Catholicism.

Have a nice day.

5:55 AM  
Blogger Simplex Vir said...

Ouch Jeff! You sure showed Cavey! Never poke a stick at a calm Marine!

5:57 AM  

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