Wednesday, May 30, 2007

The latest disease to mutate from "The Spirit of Vatican II"

I've checked out a couple of blogs the past few days that are pretty much against the Motu Proprio ever seeing the light of day. I wonder why these "conservative Novus Ordo" sites are suffering from Motuphobia so badly?

I think I know the reason why.... I remember reading a year or so back, someone (to whom I'm indebted for pointing this out) that these self-ordained defenders of the Mass of Paul VI look upon themselves as being the Lord High Protectors of Novus Ordo Orthodoxy. A contradiction in terms if their ever was one.

But let them enjoy their Calvinistic wet-dreams and Luthergasms. This rather brief flirtation with Protestantism will eventually fade away and die a wimpering death.

Anyhow, back to the question at hand... when the Motu Proprio frees the Traditional Latin Mass, it'll be Traditional Orders such as the FSSP, ICSK and eventually the SSPX, who'll be on the forefront of defending orthodox Catholic teachings. The Scott Hahn crowd will find themselves lost in the crowd. And that scares 'em to death.

You know, I think that they no only suffer from Motuphobia, they're also HIV Positive;

Has been Infected by Vatican II, Positively.


Blogger Former Altar Boy said...

I've noticed the same fear among the Modernists. They realize their touchy-feely, vain hope for women priests, non-judgmental, no-sin idea of religion may be taken away from them, and it drives them crazy.

10:02 PM  
Blogger Paul, just this guy, you know? said...

I'm surprised by your hostility to the "Scott Hahn crowd". I've enjoyed several of Dr. Hahn's books; I've found that they help me recover and understand much that was perhaps lost in this era of bad catechesis.

They're not advanced works, to be sure, but I think they provide good introductions to the topics he's addressing.

What are you reading that's causing you to react this way?

10:59 AM  
Blogger Jay3gsm said...

Ok, I'm getting confused. Maybe someone could take the time to enlighten me a bit here. What is wrong with Vatican II? I've read some of the documents, they don't appear to teach bad faith. Can someone help enlighten me here? What's wrong with Scott Hahn? He seems knowledgeable, and appears to tell it the way it is. My email is in my profile, if someone wants to help a confused guy, please do.

2:04 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Orthodoxae said...

Free the Ancient Mass?! OH NO!

*saracasm off*

2:59 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

I've read of Hahn (and others) in the past who have stated words to the effect of "if it were not for the changes brought on by V2, I probably wouldn't have ever converted".

And Hahn's latest where he stated that Traditional minded Catholics were "legalistic, servile and anti-spiritual".

That doesn't say a whole helluva lots for the 2,000 years of Catholicism prior to V2.

Hahn reminds me of the passage "the cornerstone that the builders rejected".


There is not a whole lot wrong with the Council itself. V2 was never intended to be a dogmatic (binding upon pain of sin) council. V2 was a "pastoral" council, For the most part, V2 was all about "let's talk about this..."

Yet the innovators filled with their "spirit" of V2 kicked the door wide open for error, scandal and abuse... as we see so much of the past few decades.

Feel free to go to the upper left portion of my blog and search for the posts titled "Happy Anniversary Vatican II" and "Anna Haycraft".

Hope that helps!

4:00 PM  
Blogger Paul, just this guy, you know? said...

And Hahn's latest where he stated that Traditional minded Catholics were "legalistic, servile and anti-spiritual".

That's not very charitible or inclusive. When/where was this said?

11:48 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Here's a link to the YouTube video. Hope it helps!

12:34 PM  
Blogger Dave said...


1) Had to take care of the Cavebaby...

2) Found the YouTube. I will reply.

8:10 PM  
Blogger Dave said...

I'll reply here, I think...

I think Dr. Hahn generalized a bit too much. But there are some in the Traditionalist Movement who have a very limited idea of what Tradition is, who identify Tradition with what American Catholics did in the 1950's, and not with the entire Church of the last 2000 years. I do understand that some of this is a reaction to the insanity of the late 1960's and 1970's. But there's a lot of things that are best left behind.

An excellent piece on this, written from a Traditionalist perspective, may be found here:

7:28 AM  
Blogger Dave said...

One other thing (apologies for not putting this in the previous comment):

There is a sizable Trad/Trad-friendly group at Franciscan University. They go off-campus for the Indult or for a Byzantine Rite Liturgy, or they go to the Latin Missa Normativa offered on campus.

7:35 AM  
Blogger Tony said...

Ahhh... Motu... You can almost hear the ecstasy in their voices. The motu will change every thing. It will roll back the horrible changes of Vatican II, it will make everyone more pious, it will transform everyone's clothing immediately into "Sunday best", it will put a veil on every female head, and it will even make your corn flakes stay crunchy in milk!!!

Here is my prognostication (I know fortune telling is a sin against the first commandment, but this is using past behavior to determine possible future behavior).

The motu will be promulgated, and there will be a collective traditionalist orgasm which will be followed by waves of "I told you so, you libruls are gonna get it now!" posts.

Then reality will set in.

1. The priests who want to celebrate the rite of Trent will celebrate it. This isn't a whole lot different than it is now, except in a few bastions of moonbattery like Los Angeles, Orange, Seattle, and Rochester, NY.

In Syracuse diocese, all it takes for an indult is a call to the chancery, but the rad-traddies, like spoiled children don't want to ask for permission (even if it is traditionally [heh, I made a punny] universally given by the Bishop).

2. Those priests who want to celebrate one Trid mass a week, will find their community fractured into the "traddies" and the "novos" (and if you think the sharks and the jets were bad...)

3. Those priests who go completely Trid, will find people going to whatever mass they feel most comfortable. People do have things called "automobiles" that allow them to move quickly and easily from place to place. You'll still have people who prefer St. Bozo's down the street where they have the clown mass they like.

4. Not a whole lot is going to change because we don't have priests in the numbers we need who have the training and more importantly the inclination to celebrate the traditional mass.

What needs to change to have a renewal in the church is a change in the hearts and minds of the people. We need priests who celebrate the mass piously, reverently and faithfully and by their actions, convert the hearts of their flocks. Now is time for pastors who take it easy, not "Catholic cavemen" swinging their clubs at those nasty libs.

We are doing that in our church. The kooks have moved on, and the people who are into worship have moved in, and we don't have exclusively Latin, chant and ad orientem.

4:03 PM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

You left one thing out, smart-ass.... this is the beginning of the end of Roman Protestantism.

And the best part is, you and the rest of the neo-luthers who are hell bent on the watering-down of the Church know it.

The Motu Proprio pisses all of you off so bad, it actually seeps through the internet.


By the way, there's a word for you "lib's" within The Church... you're called "Protestants".

Hope you enjoyed posting here. It's your last.

4:16 PM  
Blogger Diane said...

Guys, I gotta tell you that this is some of the most disgusting display between Catholics I've seen in any blog thus far.

Take a break from blogging and commenting for a while and head to the nearest adoration chapel. Ponder how well Our Lord, Pope Benedict XVI, or Pope Pius X, or any pope for that matter would have received your conversation had you been in their presence. I've seen more maturity out of high school students.

Print out your exchange and share it with a priest of your choice and see how he reacts and be sure to leave your colorful metaphors and use of sexual examples intact. Is this the virtue Christ taught us?

I favor the motu proprio and I deal with people who favor the reform of the reform who are struggling with the forthcoming m.p. If you follow Christ's commandment to love one another, you will set aside "the club" and find charitable ways to bring people along.

As for Scott Hahn, it is my understanding that he himself chooses a more traditional parish to attend in the Steubenville area than the more charismatic one. I've seen that clip, and while disappointing, I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he was referring to a small segment of traditionalists who are troubling in their own way. There are some who raise traditional Catholicism to a level that is higher than the gospel itself when the two need to go hand in hand.

This blog post and series of exhanges is a perfect example of that. Charity was thrown out by the wayside for the sake of the liturgy. I can't reconcile that kind of behavior with anything Christ taught.

You are all in my prayers.

5:31 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Possibly it should be pointed out that I never went to Tony's blog to instigate trouble.

He decided to stroll in here and start the mud-slinging. I ended his foolishness, harshly... but ended it nonetheless.

Maybe Tony will desplay better manners in the future

8:19 AM  
Blogger Paul, just this guy, you know? said...

Aw, Tony wasn't making trouble Cavey, he was just teasing.

He's right; Vatican II was a valid council, and the Novus Ordo is a valid liturgy; I know this because the Church tells me so.

You're right, both VII and the NO have been used for terrible abuses to the great scandal of the faithful in the U.S. and elsewhere, too. Combined with abysmal catechesis, the effect has been -- I don't want to say devestating about an institution that will withstand the gates of Hell, but -- very, very bad. We'll be a long time recovering.

You're right, the Motu Proprio will be a boon to the church. He's right, the benefits have been largely overblown by many of its supporters.

In my own blog, I've predicted that the effect will not be very noticeable any time soon.

Tony's no Protestant, Roman or otherwise. He deserves better than that from you.

11:35 AM  
Blogger Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

You know that I've never doubted the validity of the 2d Vatican Council, nor the Mass of Paul VI. You know that.

I've made it abundantly clear that V2 is a Pastoral Council (VERY little binding upon pain of sin), and that "the spirit" of V2 is Prot-Speak for "do your own thing". And as I've never questioned the validity of the New Mass. I have, however, stated that it leaves the possibility for error and/or abuse wide open. Sheesh... we've seen that for the past 40 years.

As far as Tony's concerned, he's a troll (of the internet variety). For whatever bizarre reason, he saw fit to stroll in here and conduct himself like a jerk. Much like the Mass, he thinks he sets the tone and direction around here. Wrong answer, Tony.

Paul, you and I have strongly disagreed before. Both on my blog and vice-versa. But we've always managed to do just that... disagree. That's where it ended. At the end of the day, we were friends who also happened to disagree on a certain point. Period.

Tony needs to look behind him. See that line?

11:52 AM  

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