Shouldn't Christ Be Proclaimed Instead Of Being The Object Of Temporary Theological Amnesia?This is about a lot more than just a physical posture and facing towards a certain geographical location
I know this post is going to anger a lot of people, but I don't care. I'm going to say what many of you are already thinking. And that's the whole reason for this post... to make you think about this.
Yeah, yeah... I know. It was billed as a "fence building" mission to Turkey, etc, etc, ad nauseum. I know all that. Attending Divine Liturgy with the Greek Orthodox Patriarch? No problem. Like all Catholics, I would be elated to see the schism end.
But folks, the pope really screwed up when he gave credence to Islam. As we all know by now, when he went to the Blue Mosque, not only did he assume the moslem prayer stance, he also faced towards Mecca. That's just wrong.
What "God" was His Holiness adoring to while he assumed the moslem stance? What "God" was His Holiness praying to when he faced towards the city of Mohammed?
Let's be honest here, Pope Benedict was praying to the moslem notion of what the Nature of The Almighty is. Keep in mind, the moslems deny the Divinity of Christ and the complete existence of The Holy Ghost. So I ask... was the pope praying to The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, or to some freakish, heretical version thereof? I wonder.
And our pontiff just gave them credibility with this little stunt of his. Wouldn't it have been courageous of The Holy Father would have done a Sign of The Cross and said an Our Father instead of paying homage to the False Prophet? Yeah, they would have been furious, but like I've said before, they don't need a reason... just an excuse.
What was it again that Jesus said? Something along the lines of "no man goes to The Father except through Me", right? Didn't He also say something about those who deny Him? Yeah, I think He did.
The minute Pope Benedict stepped foot into the mosque and started conducting himself like a moslem, he very well may have gained political allies, but he also weakened the Church, cheapened the papacy, and most importantly, insulted Christ.
And yes, it's precisely because I am a faithful Catholic that I say this. I'm faithful to 2,000 years of Catholicism, not a burgeoning cult of personality.
Pray for our pope.
The following are snippets found in the ComBox;
To be faithful to tradition is now called radicalism?
And for that blinding bit of obviousness, the enigmatic Theophilus wins the first ever CWMAFHTRSTRATFYL Award (Caveman Weapons Marksmanship Award For Hitting That REALLY SMALL 10 Ring At the 500 Yard Line). Good shootin' Theo!
And the second winner of the CWMAFHTRSTRATFYL Award, would be the original Cave-Babe, Amy over at Modern Commentaries, for her pointing out what I didn't see that was in front of me the whole time. To wit;
No Muslim that Benedict met with would enter a Catholic church, make the sign of the Cross and kneel before the Blessed Sacrament.
And the Third Award goes to the Lair's own shrinking violet, PreVat2 for his laconic obervation;
This is all post-Vatican II bullshit.
Don't hold back PV Deuce... tell us what you really think.
posted by Kevin Whiteman at
10:58 PM
17 Comments:
Since there is only one God, Moslems worship the same God Christians do...
As I've already pointed out, the heretical moslems deny the Divinity of Christ and the complete existence of The Holy Ghost, hence they don't worship the same God as we do.
...the same God Mormons do...
Again, incorrect. the mormon "baptism" isn't even recognozed by the Catholic Church, since the moprmons deny the Holy Trinity (just like the moslems). The mormons also adhere to some sort of nonsense about Adam being "the god" of this particular planet. While I'm at it, the mormons also believe that God The Father "evolved" into God, another heretical belief.
...and the same God the Jews do. Again, denial of The Holy Trinity IS denial of God Almighty.
Sleepy, this is basic stuff, bro.
By the way, I don't seem to recall any "radical Catholics" flying airplanes into the World Trade Center.
Semper Fidelis
The monotheistic religions do not worship the same God. That is what Vatican II theologians want to make believe but that is a lie. Jews and Moslems do not believe in the 2nd and 3rd Persons of the Holy Trinity. They also blame Christianism for all the misery in the world, they hate us. Dialogue with them is useless. Only God could convert them to the real Truth. To be faithful to tradition is now called radicalism? Radicals are those who perverted tradition and said nothing really serious happened. I think BXVI should not have prayed with Moslems and give them some credibility. That was a pastoral scandal to say the least. Our efforts should concentrate on bringing back the Orthodox which still have valid orders although illicit.
Theophilus
I tend to agree with you on this one.
Anytime a Catholic shows willingness to compromise the basic tenets of our faith - especially when it comes to Islam - we're seen as weak.
No Muslim that Benedict met with would enter a Catholic church, make the sign of the Cross and kneel before the Blessed Sacrament.
I get that Benedict put his safety at risk for this trip, but I also believe he could have "built fences" while maintaining traditional Catholic faith.
Great! What next? More Koran kissing? This is absolute crap-a-mundo! Damn it, when will Rome return to the One, True Faith? When will we stop all this "Prayer Meeting at Assisi" nonsense? When will we again have Popes in the mold of Pius XII, St. Pius X, Leo XIII, St. Pius V, or Pope St. Gregory the Great?
Ladies and Gentlemen: Muslims do NOT worship the same God as us. Never did, never will. This is all post-Vatican II bullshit. Let's all reach down, grab a set, and tell the Muslim world to go pound sand.
By the way: Any big-wig Muslim clerics going to openly pray at St. Peter's?
Semper Fi
ROTFL!!
Give 'em hell, Papa Victor Deuce!!
Isn't facing East a traditional position for Catholic prayer? Time was when Catholic alters always faced East, before Vatican II changed the position of priests offering the sacrifice of the Mass.
Perhaps it would be more charitable to assume that Benedict was taking on a traditional Catholic position, rather than assuming that he was worshiping Mecca.
You mean suddenly after Jesus began His ministry, all the Jews who didn't believe He was the Messiah were no longer worshipping His Father because they didn't accept the Son?
That's exactly what I mean FAB. For the literal thousands of Hebrews and Shebrews who accepted Christ (both then and now), they knew fully well that Jesus was (and is) the fruition of the Covenant Promise God the Father made with Abraham. I'm sure you recall the quote "if you reject the Son, you also reject the Father".
And for those that rejected Jesus, they've rejected everything that the Nation of Israel had been preparing for for thousands of years.
We just can't have it both ways. Either God is the Holy Trinity, or He isn't.
I agree with Amy. I would love to see the pope aggressively invite muslim leaders to come to Rome and show us the same courtesy that he showed them. Kneel down in front of the Blessed Sacrament.
There is an interesting thread over at Catholic Answers Forums on this. Basically the idea there is "all things to all people" ala Saint Paul.
I keep thinking about this issue. Thanks for having the guts to bring it up. So many of us have increasing encounters with "alternative" belief systems in our everyday lives these days. Gone are the Catholic gettos where everyone in one's sphere of influence believes the same thing. I often wonder how to deal with this. If the Holy Father doesn't want some level of acceptance of others' beliefs from us, he certaintly wouldn't have done this.
Perhaps it would be more charitable to assume that Benedict was taking on a traditional Catholic position, rather than assuming that he was worshiping Mecca.
Sarah, in your heart of hearts, do you actually believe that's what the pope was doing?
But for the sake of discussion, let's say that I agree with you. The next logical step is for me to ask "if he really was 'assuming a traditional Catholic position', then why didn't he do the Sign of the Cross and then drop to his knees?"
Sarah, I'm sure you are trying to be loyal to The Holy Father, as am I. There is nothing disloyal in pointing out error. On the contrary, that's our duty.
FAB,
Ahhhh.... now you're bringing Invincable Ignorance into the equasion! Can those in the state of I.I. attain salvation? Of course!
When you brought up the devout Jew who is studying the OT and starts to question the present day Judaism attitude towards Jesus... well that individual has obviously been touched by The Holy Ghost. And of course The Father hears the prayers of that individual!
We both agree that God moves in myterious ways. Faith is a Grace bestowed by God. Where the rubber meets the road is how any individual responds to The Holy Ghost when they are touched by Him.
IMHO, even if someone dies a non-Catholic, but has that "lingering question" about Jesus, God will judge state of their soul... not me. At the absolute split second before death, will there be a conversion of the heart? I dunno, but God does.
And for those in a state of I.I. (and there are hundreds of reasons as to why one would be), as I stated before, absolutely can attain salvation. In the meantime, all we can do for them is pray for their conversion, and demonstrate our Catholicism by our words and deeds.
Faith and Works, brother! Faith and Works!
When I first saw this I too was disapointed and forced to tell myself, "atleast there was Koran kissing."
It is worth pointing out though that I think what the media really lost focus of was that this trip was about, building bridges between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, in regards to that I would say mission accomplished, I think all things pertaining to that were positive.
It is also worth pointing out that while the Pope did remove his shoes and face east (towards not just Mecca but Jeruselm might I add) none but God know what his prayers were, for all we know he could have been praying for the convesrion of the people in Mosque.
I would have been thrilled had the Pope turned down this offer and went to the Hagia Sophia and made the sign of the cross and fell to his knees in prayer. Of course there is a place for diplomacy too. You need to build bridges before you can storm accross them.
A year ago I helped a friend go from athiesm to becoming a Catholic. Had I simply taken the most hard line approach towards this friend they probably would have closed their heart to this. Likewise in the grander scheme of things, bringing about conversions in the Muslim world is not going to come about by saying "There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church!" I mean when the Muslims say "Death to the infidels," that doesn't exactly have me itching to convert. You do need to find common ground, in the case of Mulsims and Catholics I'd say we need to especaily look to the Virgin Mary on this.
There is also the consideration that the west simply is not up for a "Clash of Civilizations," that is to say that while Christianity can count on God's power and might in an hour of crisis (ala Tours, Lepanto, Viena, etc) the sad fact of the matter is that the Pope, who embodies all that is good about the past, and present, of Western Civilzation, is in Europe, a voice crying out in the wilderness. The Pope cannt provoke a confrontation that the west simply won't back him in, and probably can't win.
FD,
That was a well written and well thought-through comment.
But I still have to ask the question.... "Shouldn't Christ Be Proclaimed Instead Of Being The Object Of Temporary Theological Amnesia?"
This whole thing could have been avoided if His Holiness would have never stepped foot in there and started conducting himself like a moslem. No matter how much people say "well, he could have been thinking.... blah, blah, blah."
Well, I don't know what was going on in the pope's mind. But I do know how he conducted himself. And as we both know, one's external appearance directly reflects one's interal disposition towards God. And we all certainly know what his external appearance was.
And you know, FD... I honestly never expected the pope to say anything even remotly hard-line to the moslems while he was in Turkey, but I never expected temporary amnesia with this little stunt, either.
There's simply no getting around this one... the pope screwed-up and he's wrong.
SB,
I honestly do understnd what you're getting at, but in all fairness, it doesn't matter what someone "claims". I could claim to be a Cocker Spaniel, that doesn't mean I am one. That's where moral absolutes come into play.
Also, you implied that there's a difference between Catholics and Christians. Please keep in mind that Catholics are not only Christian... we're the first Christians.
SB,
It was an injustice to you that "Catholic Knight" failed to tell the entire story.
He failed to mention #846;
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it
And the very next paragraph speaks of Invincable Ignorance.
Is B16 the Vicar of Christ for the whole world, or just for Catholics? The next thing you know, he will be eating with tax collectors, healing on the sabbath, and showing dominion over demons.
We know the Catholics are right and the Muslims, Mormons, and so forth are wrong because God revealed Himself to the world as Jesus Christ and established the Church (with Peter and his successors as the visible head) the authority to protect the faith, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Except when the pope doesn't do it the way we want him to.
Got it.
Or maybe, just like only Nixon could go to China, maybe only the Pope can go to the Muslims.
Dang it, are we supposed to love, pray for and try to bring the gospel to these Muslim people, or can we just hate them and kill them?
I know which is easier, but which is the will of the Father?
I'm just a badly catechized convert (since Rome will not do anything about Cardinal Mahony) but I am SO with you on the Islam thing. I don't get it. I didn't get it when the last pope kissed the Koran, either. It gives me the willies.
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