tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post4519285291550760172..comments2024-01-26T00:56:19.791-05:00Comments on The Lair of the Catholic Cavemen: Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-79321495020222280672007-05-04T05:11:00.000-05:002007-05-04T05:11:00.000-05:00Anon,I said what she posted was stupid (blatantly,...Anon,<BR/><BR/>I said what she posted was stupid (blatantly, at that)... not the indivudual. There's a difference.Kevin Whitemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019976622801954677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-71921951302787468992007-05-04T04:48:00.000-05:002007-05-04T04:48:00.000-05:00This is a new site to me, I'm in the UK and I don'...This is a new site to me, I'm in the UK and I don't often visit US sites so I was surprised about the aggressiveness of your comments. I appriciate heathly debate but when it comes to calling people 'stupid' - I find that unnecessarily intimidating. I think I may be a little too soft for this blog!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-12104569107991758322007-05-03T17:33:00.000-05:002007-05-03T17:33:00.000-05:00LOL - did I ever have credibility with you?Not whe...<I>LOL - did I ever have credibility with you?</I><BR/><BR/>Not when you post blatantly stupid things like you just did.<BR/><BR/><I>Fessio was on there because he authored an authoritative vatican document. He wasn't there as an independent person.</I><BR/><BR/>Ahhhh.... <B>now</B> you state he is some sort of Vatican author? Is this yet another example of your "facts" that you pull out of thin air? <BR/><BR/>I'm just in a state of stunned amazment over your ability to play factual hopscotch.<BR/><BR/>Jump to tjhe left! Jump to the right! <BR/><BR/>Don't worry, WC. Eventually you'll give a factual statement. The Law of Averages demands it.Kevin Whitemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019976622801954677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-52704181144827551712007-05-03T17:08:00.000-05:002007-05-03T17:08:00.000-05:00LOL - did I ever have credibility with you?Fessio ...LOL - did I ever have credibility with you?<BR/><BR/>Fessio was on there because he authored an authoritative vatican document. He wasn't there as an independent person.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-83735019935003432132007-05-03T16:29:00.000-05:002007-05-03T16:29:00.000-05:00WC, Your credibility is getting wafer thin. I went...WC, <BR/>Your credibility is getting wafer thin. <BR/><BR/>I went to that MSNBC transcripts site, and there wasn't one Vatican official. <BR/><BR/>The list of guests were as follows;<BR/><BR/><B>Guests: REV. THOMAS BOHLIN, U.S. Vicar, Opus Dei<BR/><BR/>JOSEPH BOTTUM, Editor, First Things Contributing Editor, The Weekly Standard<BR/><BR/>THOMAS CAHILL, Author and Historian<BR/><BR/>E.J. DIONNE, Washington Post Columnist<BR/><BR/>REV. JOSEPH FESSIO, S.J., Provost, Ave Maria University, Founder, Ignatius Press <BR/><BR/>JON MEACHAM, Managing Editor, Newsweek <BR/><BR/>SISTER MARY AQUIN O'NEILL, RSM, PhD, Director, Mount Saint Agnes Theological Center For Women<BR/><BR/>Moderator/Host: Tim Russert, NBC News</B><BR/><BR/>I didn't see any Vatican officials listed, did you?<BR/><BR/>You pointed out Fr. Fessio. Here's what Fr. Fessio had to say about a married priesthood -- <BR/><BR/><I>MR. RUSSERT: Father Fessio, the Catholic Church, in fact, could alter its teaching on birth control, or use of condoms or on married priests or on female priests, true?<BR/><BR/>REV. FESSIO: Well, you put several things in that list, Tim, and the answer is three are false and one is true, <B>and the one that's possibly true is married priests</B>, but not on condoms, not on contraception and not on the ordination of women.</I><BR/><BR/>THIS is your proof of some Vatican conspiracy to have a celebate priesthood in the Western Church declared infallible!!?? Sorry, I have to lough out loud!<BR/><BR/>In all fairness, during that same interview, MSNBC showed a video from sometime in the late 1980's that had the following; <BR/><BR/><I>BISHOP JAMES MALONE (Past President, Conference of Catholic Bishops): Yes, that's the phenomenon that we've experienced particularly since 1968. And we find that the majority of Catholics are opposed to such teachings as our opposition to abortion, our opposition to divorce and remarriage, <B>our opposition to the ordination of married priests.</B></I><BR/><BR/>Wow... a bishop that publically upholds a Church discipline. I'm underwhelmed. <BR/><BR/>Lastly, your Free Republic ref is from an article written by one of the Resident Heretics over at The National Catholic Distorter. You gotta do better than that if you want to be taken seriously. <BR/><BR/>Like I said, WC, your credibility is wearing pretty thin.Kevin Whitemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019976622801954677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-48068384094760663442007-05-03T15:36:00.000-05:002007-05-03T15:36:00.000-05:00Here are some references. I have still not found ...Here are some references. I have still not found the transcript I have in mind though Fr. Fessio's debate with Russert is interesting. To show you the nice kind of bear I am, here it is, athough it supports your argument:<BR/><BR/>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7619740/print/1/displaymode/1098<BR/><BR/>And here is another article that essentially supports your argument, VSC. To me, it sonds almost as if that the mandatory-celibacy-powers within the Vatican might be guilty of the Apostolici heresy. <BR/><BR/>http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/688911/posts<BR/><BR/>All the Best, -BAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-44115766321606192592007-05-03T15:00:00.000-05:002007-05-03T15:00:00.000-05:00LOL, Fair enough VSC. It was a priest, and memory...LOL, Fair enough VSC. It was a priest, and memory is slowly coming back to me. Now I am thinking it may have been Tim Russert's 20 minute interview with a vatican official on meet the press some time ago. In any point, like I said, one pint for the caveman and minus one for the bear on this one (until i find the referece).<BR/><BR/>Question: Are you really in that much doubt that the conservative factions in the vatican would try to say that the marriage prohibition for priests has taken on infallible character?<BR/><BR/>You know, I bet you conervative folks would be all happy and aglow if someone decided that various things you <I>agree</I> with were infallible-in-nature, but you really ought to realize that you could just as easily find yourself on the opposite side of that on an issue when the pendulum swings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-11360898154787326252007-05-03T14:54:00.000-05:002007-05-03T14:54:00.000-05:00Anon, Excellent points!!__________________________...Anon, <BR/>Excellent points!!<BR/>________________________________<BR/><BR/>WC, If you expect me or anyone else to take you and your posts seriously, you have to do a better job of citing your sources of (dis)information.<BR/><BR/>Case in point;<BR/><I>I saw a vatican (sic) official dude on catholic TV just the other day</I> hardly qualifies as you pointing out official Church Teaching.<BR/><BR/>Could this "Vatican official dude" possibly be an Officer in the Swiss Guard? Maybe he's a visiting lecturer at the Ethiopian College? Maybe... just maybe... he's some minor official who is spouting off his personal opinion? <BR/><BR/>Credibility, WC..... credibility.Kevin Whitemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019976622801954677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-13776686931305564482007-05-03T13:19:00.000-05:002007-05-03T13:19:00.000-05:00Nope, I saw a vatican official dude on catholic TV...Nope, I saw a vatican official dude on catholic TV just the other day say that mandatory celibcay in the priesthood has taken on an 'infallible character'.<BR/><BR/>See, there's the rub. Either you are ultramontane and drink the CDF cool-aide, or you admit some dissent and that you disagree with a point or two. Having disagreed, some folks will call you 'Martin Luther', a 'Roman Protestant', et cetera even though they themselves have at least a few things that they believe in their hearts Rome could do better.<BR/><BR/>Listen, I don't think there are many ethics at all that Rome has defined infallibly. The fact that the first Millennium of church practice wherein priests could marry is ignored is really tragic, IMHO. And it is my <I>humble</I> opinion.<BR/><BR/>But to the vatican right now, I would not agree that they see mandatory clerical celibacy as a 'discipline'. They see it in the same light, and with the same seriousness that they view policies on homosexuality and contraception. If you really want to press the point, I could start digging up references I suppose. But that would get boring. I think I'll just wrap it up with that.<BR/><BR/>A big part of the reason I dissent is that I don't dig the celibate tree house the Roman tradition has built for itself. When the scandals broke in Boston, I became absolute in that dissent. And I realized that all of Rome's Stoic sexaul ethic relating to unitive and procreative requirements for all sexual acts hinges upon Augustinian sexual self loathing that we should have grown out of by now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-57942749143742493052007-05-03T12:32:00.000-05:002007-05-03T12:32:00.000-05:00you are rapidly evolving cavey, right before my ve...<I>you are rapidly evolving cavey, right before my very eyes. </I><BR/><BR/>Why? Because I agree with a 2,000 year old Catholic Tradition? For the Eastern Rites, anyhow.<BR/><BR/><I>I am glad that you agree that mandatory clerical celibacy ought to be ended.</I><BR/><BR/>When did I say that? I said that I'm in favor of a married priesthood. If and when The Church of Rome changes this certain discipline, fine. In the mean-time... I ain't drinking the kool-aide and jumping on the "let's be like the Protties" bandwagon.<BR/><BR/><I>Of course you do realize that that opinion makes you a fellow dissenter</I><BR/><BR/>Being in favor of a married priesthood doesn't make anyone a "dissenter". Celebacy in The Western Church is a discipline... not a dogma. It changed once, it can change again.Kevin Whitemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019976622801954677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-22699477366311540882007-05-03T12:00:00.000-05:002007-05-03T12:00:00.000-05:00All I was getting at is that sometimes people, lik...All I was getting at is that sometimes people, like the Catholic<BR/>prodigy in MD, might just be better at selecting bishops than clergy who went through a seminary where they learned I'm ok, you're ok, and we all have to love one another's okness at our communal banquet. <BR/><BR/>Trouble is, today too many overlook the facts that Jesus ate with REPENTANT sinners, or with sinners he wanted to repent, and that the object of prayer is drawing nearer to God, not to the girl in the tight top in the pew in front of you.<BR/><BR/>I acknowledge and appreciate everybody's historical references, and the only reason I brought it up was so we all could be better informed. I don't think election of bishops is a good idea anymore.<BR/><BR/>I won't drag down the levity with any more posts on this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-5510587168554428592007-05-03T07:27:00.000-05:002007-05-03T07:27:00.000-05:00LOL, you are rapidly evolving cavey, right before ...LOL, you are rapidly evolving cavey, right before my very eyes. Yes, I will agree that the Eastern Rite might be a better success story. I am glad that you agree that mandatory clerical celibacy ought to be ended. Of course you do realize that that opinion makes you a fellow dissenter. A conservative dissenter, but a dissenter.<BR/><BR/>There are those in the magisterium that are trying to claim that mandatory celibacy has taken on an infallible character.<BR/><BR/>Hey, I deeply respect the charism of celibacy for those who are granted it. But those who try to make the priesthood into some kind of Peter Pan bachelor's club, that I disagree with.<BR/><BR/>In fact, that I'd say priestly marriage is the cornerstone of my dissent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-41351854586965115322007-05-03T06:30:00.000-05:002007-05-03T06:30:00.000-05:00Regarding the election of early church bishops, th...Regarding the election of early church bishops, there is a fundamental difference in circumstances. At the time of the elections of the Saints Augustine and Ambrose, they were living in a vibrant and faithful community of Christians who were all very well catechised - modern Christians are for the most part abysmally ignorant of the faith.<BR/><BR/>These early elections were successful because the electors were informed and morally sound, such elections today would fail precisely because the "electors" are for the most part ignorant and morally malformed. I fully expect you to accuse me of lofty elitism, or perhaps even some kind of heresy (declaring the "sons of God" to be unequal or something), but it really doesn't matter. I just so happen to be right. Go to any Catholic church in the "old world" (as well as those countries with European cultures, such as America and Australia) and see how many people actually know anything about being Catholic. Ask them to name the seven sacraments, or even the ten commandments. Things that were once recited effortlessly by infants are now perilously impossible to recall by mature and educated, confirmed adults - adults who by virtue of their age and confirmation should have a solid catechesis, and don't. Therefore, a congregation which doesn't know anything about the faith can not possibly know who or what is best for the faith - lay elections of clergy are utterly inappropriate to the times.Stella Orientishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15654759332682745087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-81746139174801934272007-05-02T20:13:00.000-05:002007-05-02T20:13:00.000-05:00Protestant Catholics - don't bother trying to dial...Protestant Catholics - don't bother trying to dialouge with the Catholics, give it up and come on over. All that apostasy stuff is just a load of propaganda - do you really think God loves Catholics more than everyone else?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-11009251498813104102007-05-02T16:26:00.000-05:002007-05-02T16:26:00.000-05:00Golly gee, WC. The rest of us aren't even homo-sap...Golly gee, WC. The rest of us aren't even homo-sapiens? Little slip on your part as to how you REALLY feel, 'eh WC?<BR/><BR/>By the by, I do believe I did give historical example to the election of bishops question, did I not? But in all fairness to you, I understand that it doesn't fit your agenda... so now I realize why you ignored it. <BR/><BR/>And this may come as a shock to you, but I also, am in favor of a married priesthood. But here is where we part company --- I point to the example of Eastern Rite Catholicism. You point to the example of heretical Protestants. <BR/><BR/>Another little slip on your part?<BR/><BR/>Let the scales fall from your eyes, WC.Kevin Whitemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019976622801954677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-69989425142778013012007-05-02T15:44:00.000-05:002007-05-02T15:44:00.000-05:00Hey anonymous,finally another homo sapien in the c...Hey anonymous,<BR/><BR/>finally another homo sapien in the cave!?! The cave art is beautiful. I particularly like the shades of ochre for the spears and so forth. But it is nice to hear a voice of reason and actual history.<BR/><BR/>Yes ladies and gentlemen, there was an era of democracy in the church long, long ago. And it wasn't all bad.<BR/><BR/>You can make all the claims you want to that liberalism is at fault for the priest shortage. But others might argue it is stubborness, or [GASP] mandatory celibacy for priests. Mandatory celibacy was only the rule for the first 1000 years. <BR/><BR/>And I'll also point out that there are no shortage of space-capsule building, contemporary celibate priests.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-84847684636583901742007-05-02T15:02:00.000-05:002007-05-02T15:02:00.000-05:00Both Ambrose and Augustine were elected, or appoin...Both Ambrose and Augustine were elected, or appointed after a de facto election. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, it seemed a child in the crowd was the instigator of the call for Ambrose. Neither had been a priest, both were reluctant, and Ambrose was a catechumen at the time of his election. Thank God for them.<BR/><BR/>Maybe the democratic model might be an improvement. WF Buckley said something to the effect that he would find people with better judgement in the first pages of the<BR/>phonebook than he would in candidates in a given election.<BR/>Not that Ambrose or Augustine were ordinary, but maybe there's a parallel?<BR/><BR/>Just thinkin'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-89148719012696298982007-05-02T14:53:00.000-05:002007-05-02T14:53:00.000-05:00You forgot "Traditionalist Catholics". They're sch...<I>You forgot "Traditionalist Catholics". They're schismatic protestants too.</I><BR/><BR/>Does that include the FSSP and Diocesan priests who celebrate The Traditional Latin Mass?<BR/><BR/>You paint with a pretty wide brush, there WC.<BR/><BR/>Please enlighten me further about those who are <I>nasty, arrogant and hypocritical</I>.<BR/><BR/>Those were the words you used, right?<BR/><BR/>By the way, I couldn't help but laugh out loud concerning your "medeival high church". <BR/><BR/>Golly... did the Middle Ages really extend until Vatican II? <BR/><BR/>Sorry, WC. I'm still laughing over that one!Kevin Whitemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019976622801954677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-51741946189522154182007-05-02T07:31:00.000-05:002007-05-02T07:31:00.000-05:00"In closing, to those who call themselves "Progres...<I>"In closing, to those who call themselves "Progressive Catholics" or "Reformed Catholics", let me tell you that Catholicism already has a word for folks like that... they're called Protestants.</I><BR/><BR/>You forgot "Traditionalist Catholics". They're schismatic protestants too. Only they are too hypocrtical to admit their dissent most of the time. Don't get me wrong, I realize there are plenty of great trads out there who strive towards obedience and humbly submit to services that don't satisfy their tastes fully. I've read blogs of trads who truly strive towards humility whilst also longing for medeival high church.<BR/><BR/>But lets call a spade a spade. A trad is often the nastiest form of arrogant, hypocritical dissenter in the church. They place their liturguical tastes like an idol before God, and claim that their tastes are God's will. In reality they often end up serving someone else, and have no idea who the Holy Spirit is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-726564758884832402007-05-01T21:39:00.000-05:002007-05-01T21:39:00.000-05:00Qm2/ss ROFL! Thanks for the ideas, I may have to...Qm2/ss<BR/> ROFL! Thanks for the ideas, I may have to try them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-62179158936605361662007-05-01T19:29:00.000-05:002007-05-01T19:29:00.000-05:00Bravo! and once again Very Well Said!!Bravo! and once again Very Well Said!!Ginnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06590610167017627438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-13739593241776117442007-05-01T15:32:00.000-05:002007-05-01T15:32:00.000-05:00QM2/SS,Thanks Shipmate!! (I did 2 yrs on Sea Duty,...QM2/SS,<BR/>Thanks Shipmate!! (I did 2 yrs on Sea Duty, so I rate to call you that!!)Kevin Whitemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019976622801954677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-85316745493831832332007-05-01T15:30:00.000-05:002007-05-01T15:30:00.000-05:00VSO,I don't think that Robert was taking any shots...VSO,<BR/>I don't think that Robert was taking any shots at you or the Eastern Orthodox. He just stated a fact. The EO are in schism (from the Catholic perspective).<BR/><BR/>From the EO perspective, you guys consider us in schism. I can live with that.<BR/><BR/>Concerning the abuses that you correctly pointed out... you're absolutely right. But then again, the Patronness of this blog, Our Lady of Akita has already warned us that garbage like this would take place. So with me armed with the knowledge of such, I'm not going to damn the entire Church. Rather, I'll fight against those who are desierous to rape Her on a daily basis. <BR/><BR/>Also, concerning the quote you gave from Pope St Gregory the Great, I ask you to consider such from http://www.catholicism.org/gregory-great.html; (about 2/3's the way down the page)<BR/><BR/><I>Gregory called himself the "servant of the servants of God," in rebuke to the grasping Patriarch's appropriation of the title of ecumenical, for he knew that John was using ecumenical <B>in the sense of universal</B>, in another attempt to take for the Bishop of Constantinople the prerogatives of the Bishop of Rome, the universal Father of Christendom. And when John's friends tried to justify him and accused Pope Gregory of making too much of a "mere question of words," the Pope answered them: "A mere affair of a title, a simple question of words! That is easily said! When Antichrist calls himself God, then dare to say: A mere affair of a title, a simple question of words!"</I> <BR/><BR/>Anyhow, my tale on the Catholic-EO rift is this... we're just a couple of squabbling brothers. Prots on the other hand, are the Prodigal Son.Kevin Whitemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019976622801954677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-2205807040970762082007-05-01T12:57:00.000-05:002007-05-01T12:57:00.000-05:00CavemanTHis is so damn funny I could not help but ...Caveman<BR/><BR/>THis is so damn funny I could not help but forward this to my friends.<BR/><BR/>In protest to handholding at certain times of the mass, I have been known to:<BR/><BR/>1. Not let go of the hand of the person beside me when the prayer was over and <BR/><BR/>2. to wave my hands in the air like I am at a football game or rock concert to demonstrate the mirrored stupidity.<BR/><BR/>3. To hold my hands infron of me like in Star Wars when the bad buys use the dark side. Its neat you can almost see the power beams coming out of my fingers.<BR/><BR/>See ya ship mate<BR/><BR/>Qm2/ssAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-53281204414922789052007-05-01T09:23:00.000-05:002007-05-01T09:23:00.000-05:00"He who claims to be the universal bishop sits on ..."He who claims to be the universal bishop sits on the throne of the Anti-Christ."<BR/><BR/>-Pope St. Gregory the Great<BR/><BR/>I also don't see too many Orthodox bishops running a kiddie rapist ring, or parishes like St. Joan of Arc, or having to explain to Orthodox Christians why we dress up for Mass, or kneel before the Tabernacle, or the concept of Iconography-and I've had to explain all of that to Catholic nuns! <BR/><BR/>Cavey doesn't take shots at us, and neither should you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com