tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post3323606097878598962..comments2024-01-26T00:56:19.791-05:00Comments on The Lair of the Catholic Cavemen: Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-33316974075792801392007-04-18T13:53:00.000-05:002007-04-18T13:53:00.000-05:00I wonder if some of the trad-radicals were on thei...I wonder if some of the trad-radicals were on their deathbed would refuse Extreme Unction and Viatacum from a Novus ordo-only priest?Former Altar Boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08751535074291354836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-77661480402038693792007-04-17T00:23:00.000-05:002007-04-17T00:23:00.000-05:00Dad29:wow...I was present for something similar tw...Dad29:<BR/><BR/>wow...I was present for something similar two years ago near Raleigh. If I'd have been sitting I'd have fallen off...as it was I just gasped and made like the goldfish.<BR/><BR/>Certain lay Catholics actually asked a priest not to offer them hosts that had not been consecrated during a Tridentine Mass. The priest said fine...then winked at me out of their line of sight. I asked him later about this. He said it wasn't the first time. He was very funny about it, just snorted with profound contempt and said "they can go to hell."<BR/><BR/>HE WAS JOKING!<BR/><BR/>He also had a point...I mean about smiling sweetly and completely ignoring them. The nerve!Simon-Peter Vickers-Buckleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05005759479935411018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-17883382020645630802007-04-16T16:10:00.000-05:002007-04-16T16:10:00.000-05:00Papabile,An ealier post by me in response to a sim...Papabile,<BR/>An ealier post by me in response to a similar remark by Anonymous doesn't seem to have gone through, so I will say again, the term concelebrate may have been my misuderstanding of what the priest told me, or he (not being an expert on the TLM) may have misspoke. Maybe he meant "assisted" which I do know occurs at traditional Masses, i.e. most Masses celebrated by a bishop, including the bishop of Rome.Former Altar Boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08751535074291354836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-27084121845154255232007-04-14T07:07:00.000-05:002007-04-14T07:07:00.000-05:002. That the priest was justified in walking away f...<I>2. That the priest was justified in walking away from his minitry.</I><BR/><BR/>It wasn't his ministry.<BR/><BR/>I've gotta admit though that probably the best way to make my point is to hand you a microphone, anon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-11906465810304735212007-04-14T06:48:00.000-05:002007-04-14T06:48:00.000-05:00Dear Anonymous,Funny, I thought the point was that...Dear Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>Funny, I thought the point was that a lack of charity can be problematic. In this case, a group of people who complained uncharitably has effectively turned off a priest from celebrating the Tridentine. <BR/><BR/>You are right that the priest should reconsider. Likewise should this group of people who complained uncharitably. Perhaps pride is interfering with both parties: the priest who "feels unappreciated" and the vociferous group who "knows how the Mass to to be done, thank you very much". <BR/><BR/>We should pray for both groups.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-5120844036848697842007-04-13T20:15:00.000-05:002007-04-13T20:15:00.000-05:00tony said -" love the Latin Mass, but I still find...tony said -<BR/><BR/>" love the Latin Mass, but I still find a certain degree of arrogance in the adherents that I find unbecoming.<BR/><BR/>You seem to be exemplifying that arrogance"<BR/><BR/>Interesting feedback!<BR/><BR/>FYI - and I have stated this in a previous post, but I am not an adherent of the TLM. In fact, I have only attended the TLM a few times in my life. No, I am a NO adherent through and through. Some have wasted blog space bringing up FSSP, SSPX, and that is not even what this topic is about.<BR/><BR/>Yes, the basic meaning of the article was thaat we should appreciate our priests. But a closer read of the article also illustrates some other disturbing themes, such as the following:<BR/><BR/>1. There is an underlying tone that generalizes and comdemns TLM adeherents as being nasty people who do not deserve this priest and,<BR/><BR/>2. That the priest was justified in walking away from his minitry.<BR/><BR/>These are the two points that I am challenging. <BR/><BR/>Come on people - Lets not debate by generalizing and calling TLM adherents "doily-heads","nasty and unappreciative","dysfunctional", etc. No, let us reflect on how this priest reacted to this challenging situation, which was to simply stop ministering to these peeple. Priests need to remember that the business that they are in are to 'lead souls to heaven.' Saving souls is not a pretty business, and not for the faint of heart. What this priest needs is an older, wiser priest to grab him by the scruff of his neck and drag him back to the ring... <BR/><BR/>And lets not gorify his reaction, which in my opinion demonstrated some personal weaknesses, by justifying and even defending what he did.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-32621455639740629942007-04-13T17:43:00.000-05:002007-04-13T17:43:00.000-05:00tony:Gregorian chant--yah! Bring it on!tony:<BR/>Gregorian chant--yah! Bring it on!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-59929607162693734602007-04-13T17:15:00.000-05:002007-04-13T17:15:00.000-05:00I think the original post is right on. Priests ar...I think the original post is right on. Priests are human. No matter what they do, someone will not be happy. <BR/><BR/>The way I see it, newer priests cannot possibly get it all right straight out of the shoot. People have to be patient. Workshops becoming more available will help. <BR/><BR/>But, the criticism of those who try, and don't get this or that perfect, has got to stop. <BR/><BR/>I don't think the criticism should stop the priest, but on the other hand, there comes a point when the priest can't even focus on mass out of concern for what he may or may not be doing right. <BR/><BR/>Patience is a virtue and people in the pew need to exercise patience. I'm grateful to see an interest on the part of young priests and the experience should not be a difficult one. <BR/><BR/>Great post. Thanks!Diane Korzeniewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06085979986006926002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-4309101668029395322007-04-13T15:39:00.000-05:002007-04-13T15:39:00.000-05:00For a priest to walk away from celebrating a Mass ...<I>For a priest to walk away from celebrating a Mass that was in effect for the majority of the history of the church because some of the faithful were too critical needs to examine his priorities.</I> <BR/><BR/>The priest is under <B>no obligation</B> to celebrate the Tridentine rite. The availability of the pre-conciliar rite is going to be completely dependent on the ability and desire of the priests who are going to celebrate it.<BR/><BR/>One thing you <B>do not</B> want to do is antagonize the man who will celebrate the rite you want. You may have to put up with a few missteps. If you make it difficult for him, especially if you are in a vocal minority, he'll probably respond by saying it just isn't worth the effort.<BR/><BR/><I>Let me flip this around - if this same priest received the same degree of criticism from the average NO parish, would he walk away from celebrating the NO Mass? Be careful how you answer!</I><BR/><BR/>Why? It's an easy answer. Of course not. But in most American parishes the priest is under obligation to celebrate the current rite of the Roman Catholic church.<BR/><BR/>There are those who have abandoned the NO. Those in communion with Rome are in the FSSP, those who aren't are in the SSPX. One worked within the framework of the current Church regulations, the other did not.<BR/><BR/>I love the Latin Mass, but I still find a certain degree of arrogance in the adherents that I find unbecoming.<BR/><BR/>You seem to be exemplifying that arrogance, "anonymous".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-91924339142788449162007-04-13T15:25:00.000-05:002007-04-13T15:25:00.000-05:00This is one of the issues I've had with the long a...This is one of the issues I've had with the long awaited Moto Proprio regarding the liberalization of the rite of Trent.<BR/><BR/>I am in the diocese of Syracuse, and when I mentioned to my pastor, that finally we would be able to celebrate the Latin rite whenever and wherever we wanted to, he looked at me and said: "We have always been able to do that, all it takes is a call to the Bishop".<BR/><BR/>And that was it. Our Bishop universally issues the indult. One would think that there would be Tridentine masses popping up like mushrooms after a spring shower.<BR/><BR/>Uhhh... No.<BR/><BR/>We have one indult mass a week within 50 miles, and that is attended by about 45 people half of whom have lace covered heads.<BR/><BR/>The community at that parish is actually two communities. There are the "Latin Mass people" and "the other people". <BR/><BR/>When the Latin Mass people are "forced" to attend the NO Mass, I was told "the doily-heads won't even shake our hand during the sign of peace!" (There seems to be a bit of animosity between the two groups.<BR/><BR/>However, on the bright side...<BR/><BR/>I suggested to our choir director that we inject a little Latin into our Masses. Maybe an Agnus Dei to start and possibly a Kyrie (I know that's Greek :)) later.<BR/><BR/>She said: "Why not do a complete Latin Chant mass setting for Holy Thursday?<BR/><BR/>So that's what we did. It was beautiful. The mass responses, from the Gloria to the Agnus Dei were all sung in Latin with organ accompaniment.<BR/><BR/>For Tara:<BR/><BR/>The readings, and other prayers the priest did were in English, and we actually sang English opening and closing hymns. <BR/><BR/>There was something for everybody (or we were able to piss everyone off, however you look at it).<BR/><BR/>If people want a prayerful, devotional Mass containing Latin, Chant, plainsong, candles, bells and incense, there is nothing in the rubrics stopping you now. You don't even need to get permission.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-78554185053636451002007-04-13T10:51:00.000-05:002007-04-13T10:51:00.000-05:00This is amazing. I thought the post was entirely a...This is amazing. I thought the post was entirely a lesson in how parishioners must exercise some charity and due consideration for our priests, and Anon comes in, misses the point completely, lashes out with some truly marvelous words of condescension and condemnation. While it is true that our priests must exercise fortitude in the face of tribulations, and that we must encourage them to fight the good fight, it is also true that, being the household of God, we who are brothers and sisters must support one another. This does not mean supporting bad judgment, but always -- always -- to correct with charity. When we start throwing around summary dismissal of other people as being "without much of a backbone" or "weak in character", it is time to remember these words: "let the one who is without sin cast the first stone." And if we still cast that stone, it is truly time to seek a confessor -- even a priest held in low esteem can validly minister the sacrament of Penance...Jeff Tanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10766263101941796485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-10965317513054107632007-04-12T22:37:00.000-05:002007-04-12T22:37:00.000-05:00Former altar-boy,Since you appear to know this pri...Former altar-boy,<BR/><BR/>Since you appear to know this priest personally, please encourage him to remain open-minded about celebrating the TLM, get to know those who request it and why, be strong in the face of 'persecution', and most of all pray for him.<BR/><BR/>It is good that you acknowledge that he may have made a poor decision. All the reasons stated and discussed, although understandable, does not mean the right decision was made. This has my main premise all along, that we should not accept that he did the correct thing by walking away from this particular ministry. If he is the type of person that you claim he is, then perhaps God will lead him back to those he formerly served. And then we can see a new article written about a priest's strength, not weakness - and that would be something worthy to read about!<BR/><BR/>Nuff SaidAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-78591938432844777142007-04-12T20:19:00.000-05:002007-04-12T20:19:00.000-05:00Anonymous (3:31pm),Think what you will, but I can ...Anonymous (3:31pm),<BR/>Think what you will, but I can tell you this priest is not weak in character from my discussions (previously and recently)with him. He didn't say "never" and when he has anough parishioners who want the TLM, he may change his mind. Although I disagree with his current decision, I can still understand someone not wanting to undergo abuse by the unappreciative.Former Altar Boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08751535074291354836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-14550702794831248322007-04-12T17:23:00.000-05:002007-04-12T17:23:00.000-05:00But really, you need to stop comparing those who a...<I>But really, you need to stop comparing those who attend Traditonal Latin Masses as comparable to alcoholics, do-dependents, gay-Masses and the like.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm not. I'm comparing (1) those who attend the TLM and then rip the priest a new one about the rubrics, and (2) those who fault such a priest for not making it a point to go learn to celebrate the TLM, to alcoholics, etc. (I've attended the TLM myself and yet feel no particular need for a twelve-step program).<BR/><BR/><I>My evaluation still stands - the story of this particular priest illustrates a man who is perhaps weak in character, obviously very thin-skinned and will not be able to withstand the pressures or persecution that will come his way.</I><BR/><BR/>And I think that evaluation says more about you, my bold persecution-resistant anonymous friend, then about him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-33723810308569844332007-04-12T15:31:00.000-05:002007-04-12T15:31:00.000-05:00lol!I have already taken that medicine - 40 years ...lol!<BR/><BR/>I have already taken that medicine - 40 years of guitar Masses, including one for this past Easter Vigil! <BR/><BR/>But really, you need to stop comparing those who attend Traditonal Latin Masses as comparable to alcoholics, do-dependents, gay-Masses and the like. The comparisons that you make actually express that you view TLM attendees as somewhat deviant, deficient, 'co-dependent' (in your words). As I mentioned several times, the TLM is a rightful aspiration to those who desire it. So says the Pope (JPII) via Ecclessia Dei and so will the Pope (B16) via the pending Motu Propio. If this is not enough for any clergy member to be aware that you cannot walk away from a ministry for those who request it, then I dont know what else could. <BR/><BR/>My evaluation still stands - the story of this particular priest illustrates a man who is perhaps weak in character, obviously very thin-skinned and will not be able to withstand the pressures or persecution that will come his way. Perhaps we should check in 5 years to see if this man has quit and walked away from his priestly duties entirely due to too many mean-spirited parishinors that will most certainly come his way. Then he will be free to become the bartender.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-13863943006980717712007-04-12T11:17:00.000-05:002007-04-12T11:17:00.000-05:00Yes, NO parishes have many, many similiar dysfunct...<I>Yes, NO parishes have many, many similiar dysfunctions - and others added to the list.</I><BR/><BR/>You appear to be just the sort of person I have in mind who would benefit from a few decades of appreciating the fact of the Real Presence at guitar Masses.<BR/><BR/><I>Rather than accept this particular priest's response to the situation that he encountered, we should challenge it, and encourage other priests who face much more hardship and criticism to stay the course. </I><BR/><BR/>You keep speaking as though the priest in question was already on that course and then quit. He wasn't, and he didn't. He encountered some alcoholics and elected not to be a bartender.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-36503648670362942932007-04-11T13:48:00.000-05:002007-04-11T13:48:00.000-05:00"And the flipping doesn't work. It begs the questi..."And the flipping doesn't work. It begs the question to ask "what if NO communities had the same dysfunction", because NO communities don't have the same dysfunction."<BR/><BR/>Yes, NO parishes have many, many similiar dysfunctions - and others added to the list. <BR/><BR/>'Father, I dont like that song book, can we use something else?', 'Father, your Masses are boring, why cant you liven it up like Fr XX?', 'Father, why do we have to stand, when everone else kneels?', 'Father, why do we have to sing in Latin during Lent, I dont like Latin?' or 'Fr, why dont you let altar girls serve?'<BR/><BR/>And the mind numbing list goes on. A priest must make a critical decision on how he handles criticism - will he let it destroy his ministry, or will he have the courage to correct others?<BR/><BR/>Rather than accept this particular priest's response to the situation that he encountered, we should challenge it, and encourage other priests who face much more hardship and criticism to stay the course. Rather then walk away from this particular ministry, this priest could have taken the opportunity to correct those who may have been harsh, correct those who are misguided, and continue to serve ALL who desire a Tridentine Mass. And remember, the celebration of a Tridentine Mass, or any Mass for that matter according to established rubrics of the Church is the right and aspiration of all the faithful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-4618711229858256592007-04-11T11:19:00.000-05:002007-04-11T11:19:00.000-05:00You are comparing celebrating the Tridentine Mass ...<I>You are comparing celebrating the Tridentine Mass with examples of deviations to rightful liturgical aspirations.</I><BR/><BR/>Uh, no I'm not. Read my comment again.<BR/><BR/><I>A "gay friendly" Mass is NOT officially sanctioned by the magesterium...</I><BR/><BR/>That depends on the particulars of what you mean by it, and in any case it is completely irrelevant to my point. A vicious lack of charity toward the priest who just brought you the TLM - as recounted by this priest - is every bit as wicked as sodomy. My point is that it isn't "chickening out" for this priest to refuse to serve drinks to an alcoholic. The TLM has obviously (taking this priest's account to be truthful) become an occasion of sinful incharity to some, just as the NO has become an occasion of the sin of indifferentism to others.<BR/><BR/><I>Let me flip this around - if this same priest received the same degree of criticism from the average NO parish, would he walk away from celebrating the NO Mass?</I><BR/><BR/>What do you mean "walk away"? He didn't walk away from a TLM parish to which he was assigned, he just chose not to learn how to celebrate the TLM on his own personal impetus.<BR/><BR/>And the flipping doesn't work. It begs the question to ask "what if NO communities had the same dysfunction", because NO communities <I>don't</I> have the same dysfunction. (They have their own dysfunctions, which this priest is also under no obligaiton to enable).<BR/><BR/>Personally I think it would be wonderful for the mystical Body of Christ if, for the next twenty years, most of those who now attend NO masses were required to attend TLM exclusively and most of those who now attend TLM were required to attend NO guitar masses exclusively and sing along.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-86961352988272574042007-04-11T09:04:00.000-05:002007-04-11T09:04:00.000-05:00as to women should not Preach or teach in the chur...<I>as to women should not Preach or teach in the churches. I've been trying to get Fr. Erik, my priest--to let me out of teaching third grade catechism.</I><BR/><BR/>Tara,<BR/>Teaching catechism to children is muuuuuuch different from teaching <B>in the churches</B>! <BR/><BR/>Wouldn't you agree that teaching <B>in the churches</B> is suppose to be done by the priests?Kevin Whitemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019976622801954677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-32144950686827460042007-04-10T20:14:00.000-05:002007-04-10T20:14:00.000-05:00Vir...I like that you correctly translated the Bib...Vir...<BR/>I like that you correctly translated the Bible passage--as to women should not Preach or teach in the churches. I've been trying to get Fr. Erik, my priest--to let me out of teaching third grade catechism. I think I'll send him this post--LOL!<BR/><BR/>But seriously, As long as our Holy Mother Church is in union with our Holy Father Pope Benedict, does it matter that she wear a new dress or the old dress? I would love her in both--because I get Jesus!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-53014162190554072442007-04-10T20:13:00.000-05:002007-04-10T20:13:00.000-05:00"So I'm not buying the simplistic "he chickened ou..."So I'm not buying the simplistic "he chickened out" narrative. If refusing to say a "gay friendly" mass isn't chickening out - and it isn't - then neither is refusing to say a "Feenyite friendly" mass."<BR/><BR/>Ahh - caught you!!<BR/> You are comparing celebrating the Tridentine Mass with examples of deviations to rightful liturgical aspirations. A "gay friendly" Mass is NOT officially sanctioned by the magesterium, a Tridentine Mass is most certainly allowed and 'to be applied generously to those who are attached...'. For a priest to walk away from celebrating a Mass that was in effect for the majority of the history of the church because some of the faithful were too critical needs to examine his priorities. Let me flip this around - if this same priest received the same degree of criticism from the average NO parish, would he walk away from celebrating the NO Mass? Be care ful how you answer!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-40678382511473979382007-04-10T17:02:00.000-05:002007-04-10T17:02:00.000-05:00Remember, the New Testament also says that women s...<I>Remember, the New Testament also says that women should not speak in church...mmmmm. </I><BR/><BR/>Tara, my friend... please keep in mind that this particular passage is correctly translated as <I>to PREACH</I> (or to teach) in the churches. <BR/><BR/>Preaching and teaching are the priests job! But then again.... the Roman Protestants have twisted that particular portion of Sacred Scripture to mean something entirely different! <BR/><BR/>Women HAVE "spoken" in the churces for quite some time now. Remember the prayers said after Low Mass? <B>Everyone</B> said them!Kevin Whitemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07019976622801954677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-41181300073355813982007-04-10T16:41:00.000-05:002007-04-10T16:41:00.000-05:00Just a thought that can help us all; when the one ...Just a thought that can help us all; when the one with a plank in his eye points out the splinter in ours, he has still done us a favor... If we get angry at him in response, perhaps the splinter is bigger than we think. In both cases, he has done us a service. <BR/>deo gratiaMarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02261197566240560777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-71327923480658094842007-04-10T11:59:00.000-05:002007-04-10T11:59:00.000-05:00former alter boy:Holding on to the traditional mas...former alter boy:<BR/>Holding on to the traditional mass...when my daughters were small, and I went clothes shopping--one time I wanted to try something new--my kids said, "no, mom--it doesn't look like you." They loved me as I was, and did not want me to change. <BR/><BR/>I think that people who hold on to the traditional Mass--love our Holy Mother Church so much--they don't want her to change. But as an acorn grows into a tree, Mom changes.<BR/><BR/>If you really want a traditional Mass you could do Mass in private homes--with mostly women tending to the details. Like they originally did in the Bible.<BR/><BR/>As for reading the Missal--It would be distracting to me, I like to meditate on the words spoken through hearing,--flipping through pages would break my concentration. But your correct when you say I would enjoy the traditional Mass--I would--I love to go to Mass!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18853193.post-35051220712015529892007-04-10T09:54:00.000-05:002007-04-10T09:54:00.000-05:00This is exactly my point - by walking away from a ...<I>This is exactly my point - by walking away from a ministry (ie. Tridentine Mass to a certain community)due to people being too critical, he has already been 'taken down' and thus has retreated.</I><BR/><BR/>There is a difference between retreating though and being codependent, and that is one of the elephants in the room when it comes to a universal indult. (I can hardly believe I am saying this. I think a universal indult would be a wonderful thing overall). <BR/><BR/>Example: it is good to minister to homosexuals <I>in a certain way</I>, and they have to be properly disposed to it or you are just enabling their sins. It is good to minister to Feenyites and other heretics <I>in a certain way</I>, and they have to be properly disposed to it or you are just enabling their sins. It is simply not the case that every choice to refrain from kissing up to a certain intransigently sinful group is a "retreat". Sometimes the best you can do for someone is to speak to them from a distance and otherwise leave them alone.<BR/><BR/>If people want the TLM they need to act like it. Anyone who is stupid and arrogant enough to rip on a priest who is willingly celebrating the TLM needs to spend (and may end up in fact spending) about a thousand years in Purgatory at a daily (valid) guitar kumbaya mass. And no day counts unless you sing along.<BR/><BR/>So I'm not buying the simplistic "he chickened out" narrative. If refusing to say a "gay friendly" mass isn't chickening out - and it isn't - then neither is refusing to say a "Feenyite friendly" mass.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com